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  1. #11
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Eastern culture is surely more holistic. Then again if the boundaries of the self are more diluted into a group then a group that doesnt mean its not selfishness, just that the boundaries of the self arent as clear. Bound to happen to an extent or another in any culture and with any animals capable of mirroring/empathy/groupthink/etc.

    Thats the normal parameters of the system.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #12
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Duality conflict within. You'll know/realize it if/when you feel/think it.
    Myeah. Thats like saying that two is three without defining any of the parameters. Its a monologue, not a conversation. Way too many variables to be processed with available information.
    Selfness is the boundary of communication. Well and sure its all about equilibrium of forces. Does saying it like its a Buddhist mantra really make it any more enlightening?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #13
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    We need to define the self first. For a social animal part of an (at least) species wide noosphere/logosphere (well by definition noosphere is supposed to be about humans but that seems like a mental tool rather than a necessary boundary)
    the self can be fluctuate and isnt a clear cut in/out boundary. The self isnt only about conscious thought, so why should it stop at our perception of ourselves, whether as a localized body/mind or reaching out through empathy etc.

    Then we can differentiate levels of interaction. What if one feels empathy yet makes decisions based on internal mental states. What if one defines the empathy itself as an internal mental state.
    What about degrees of complexity in moral decisions? Is murder wrong if its saving lives in the future? Is wrong wrong because it goes against natural biases? etc.
    To define selfishness we must first look at the self and the multiple degrees of interactions and definition of ''a self'' and interacting selves and self perceived selves which aren't defined in the same way by other self defined selves... and add the time dimension onto that and see how it dances.

    If other people define the boundaries of my percieved and variable self differently than I do in different contexts they we can both be ''correct'' in defining myself selfish and selfless.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #14
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Myeah. Thats like saying that two is three without defining any of the parameters. Its a monologue, not a conversation. Way too many variables to be processed with available information.
    Selfness is the boundary of communication. Well and sure its all about equilibrium of forces. Does saying it like its a Buddhist mantra really make it any more enlightening?
    An unilateral, personal statement, perhaps.
    I'm not versed in Buddhism, so can only share my interpretations, and to me it seems the mantra holds a purpose of results through repetition, not guaranteed, but allowed, if one is to abide to the rituals, first by simply being someone akin to an automaton, and, allegedly, such practice may lead to realization.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #15
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGv1Nay2z-U"]Relevant[/YOUTUBE]
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  6. #16
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    An unilateral, personal statement, perhaps.
    I'm not versed in Buddhism, so can only share my interpretations, and to me it seems the mantra holds a purpose of results through repetition, not guaranteed, but allowed, if one is to abide to the rituals, first by simply being someone akin to an automaton, and, allegedly, such practice may lead to realization.
    Well. of course. I can make any wierd statement and tell someone to meditate about it until they get a radical shift in perception. Its more statistical a process than anything else. Then again personal enlightement is by nature not something you can copy and past exactly. You could probably stimulate the right ''sensations'' but to coordinate all the complexity leading to that state introduces too many variables to be controlled through imperfect communication between only partially similar ''individuals''.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #17
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gCIZREHCiM"]Even more so[/YOUTUBE]
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  8. #18
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    An unilateral, personal statement, perhaps.
    I'm not versed in Buddhism, so can only share my interpretations, and to me it seems the mantra holds a purpose of results through repetition, not guaranteed, but allowed, if one is to abide to the rituals, first by simply being someone akin to an automaton, and, allegedly, such practice may lead to realization.
    Well how to define a personal statement. Its a matter of time. Other people will end up saying and thinking the same things if you give it enough time. And then it depends how you define ''same thing''. And the self of that personal statement wasnt the same self a second ago. Unilateral statements are communicated in languages similar enough for pretty coherent conversation etc.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #19
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Well. of course. I can make any wierd statement and tell someone to meditate about it until they get a radical shift in perception. Its more statistical a process than anything else. Then again personal enlightement is by nature not something you can copy and past exactly. You could probably stimulate the right ''sensations'' but to coordinate all the complexity leading to that state introduces too many variables to be controlled through imperfect communication
    Not inaccurate. Just a few days ago, in a conversation, I pointed how it's part of the traditional eastern master/guru/mentor teaching ways, to minister their knowledge/stimulate their students in order to influence said statistical results by resorting to metaphors that simply serve as pointers without steering the mind, in order to remain unbiased. Control is not part of the equation, just thoughtful stimulus that elicits contemplation and self discovery.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  10. #20
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Not inaccurate. Just a few days ago, in a conversation, I pointed how it's part of the traditional eastern master/guru/mentor teaching ways, to minister their knowledge/stimulate their students in order to influence said statistical results by resorting to metaphors that simply serve as pointers without steering the mind, in order to remain unbiased. Control is not part of the equation, just thoughtful stimulus that elicits contemplation and self discovery.
    it is control to a degree. Structure cannot be ''detached'' from itself. A human remains a human, a tool user, a tactical communicator. It starts with our first cry, whether we know it or not. Letting go is relative.

    If for example I disentangle myself from the notion of a direction/end to my statements I would end up nuancing every term so much I d have to talk in Venn diagrams. The individual venn diagrams themselves being angles of view in a multiverse of perspective. Observing changes and defining and ever expanding massively parallel wordview, until the neural networks in charge of the whole thing just cannot break down the pattern without dramatic loss in information etc.

    And people dont really multitask anyway. they just switch very fast.
    Bounded rationality in action basically.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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