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  1. #51
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    Okay, so since semantics can get quite sketchy, what do you have to say about this argument:

    Empathy and sympathy is related to other people's emotions. That which is more related to other people's emotions is more natural at being both empathetic and sympathetic. Fe is more related to to other people's emotions, Fi is more related to one's own emotions, therefore Fe is more natural at being both empathetic and sympathetic.
    I apologise for the wait. I was just about to write upon this. FPs will often show a sympathetic demeanor by stance of a far more quiet feel to their presence. It is already mentioned that they parallel the instance of the situation to themselves to try to understand it emotionally. This explains the lack of external object.

    A superficial judgment might well be betrayed, by a rather cold and reserved demeanour, into denying all feeling to this type. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, her feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop into the depth. Whereas, for instance, an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in both word and deed at the right place, thus quickly ridding itself of its impression, an intensive sympathy, because shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that embraces the misery of a world and is simply benumbed. It may possibly make an extravagant irruption, leading to some staggering act of an almost heroic character, to which, however, neither the object nor the subject can find a right relation. To the outer world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this sympathy looks like coldness, for it does nothing visibly, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    How they communicate:
    In order to communicate with others it has to find an external form which is not only fitted to absorb the subjective feeling in a satisfying expression, but which must also convey it to one's fellowman in such a way that a parallel process takes place in him.
    Communication through empathy. Quite interesting.


    So perhaps it's a flip-around by communication style where the conflict lies. The Fi user may communicate by trying to cause the other to empathize whereas the other empathizes based on human emotional understanding.

    Which would perhaps mean:
    Fi users try to get you to feel them.
    Fe users try to feel others.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the circles are getting boring.
    First off, my argument is in no way a circular argument. If you are referring to the fact that I keep on repeating my argument, it is because you have not provided anything which is relevant to or contradicts my premises.

    you see Fe as that which relates to other people, thus everything that relates to other people is more natural to Fe
    You are completely changing my argument. This new argument you have formulated is:

    Fe relates to other people therefore everything that relates to other people is more natural to Fe.

    Obviously you pointed out some fallacies in that argument.
    Last edited by Doctorjuice; 05-06-2012 at 02:06 AM.

  3. #53
    A window to the soul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    the circles are getting boring. you see Fe as that which relates to other people, thus everything that relates to other people is more natural to Fe, a.k.a. charity is giving other people money and thus interacting with their financial situation, thieves interact more with other people's money, thieves are more likely to be charitable, or the majority of flying things on earth lay eggs, airplanes are more likely to lay eggs. see the fallacy?

    your missing the pattern within the descriptions and manifestations of Fe, and that is that it relates to one's connections to others in a very certain way, the connections exist regardless of Fe or Fi, but Fe accounts for their perspectives and resulting appearance to reach one's own emotions.
    Where have you been? And you're missing the technical details within the fancy patterns that you didn't technically detail. We've covered those already. Silly. Jeesh!

    In a nutshell: you said a whole lot of nothing new!

  4. #54
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    I apologise for the wait. I was just about to write upon this. FPs will often show a sympathetic demeanor by stance of a far more quiet feel to their presence. It is already mentioned that they parallel the instance of the situation to themselves to try to understand it emotionally. This explains the lack of external object.



    How they communicate:

    Communication through empathy. Quite interesting.


    So perhaps it's a flip-around by communication style where the conflict lies. The Fi user may communicate by trying to cause the other to empathize whereas the other empathizes based on human emotional understanding.

    Which would perhaps mean:
    Fi users try to get you to feel them.
    Fe users try to feel others.
    So basically, Fi tries to say something or do an action which causes someone else to feel the same way they are feeling. Okay, so getting another person to empathize with them. Is this their intended purpose? I'm not sure. Do Fi users actually do this? I'm not sure.

    Fi users try to get you to feel them.
    Fe users try to feel others.
    Hmm those Fes need to be careful about how they feel others if you know what I mean

    Anyway.

    I agree with the part about Fe users, though I'm not sure about the Fi users part.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Where have you been? You're missing the technical details within the fancy patterns that you didn't technically detail. We've covered those already. Silly. Jeesh!

    In a nutshell: you said a whole lot of nothing!
    And also the fancy patterns within the patterned details!

  6. #56
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    It REALLY depends on what it is. Fi projection can either make one extremely empathetic or rather apathetic. How Fe reads the situation can either make them quite understanding (many times empathetic) or very judgmental. Fe is also about interpreting a situation but maybe not quite in the same way like Fi.

    Both can drive me nuts.

    Fe can sometimes feel like playing by the motions.
    Fi can sometimes project crap that's not there.

  7. #57
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    So basically, Fi tries to say something or do an action which causes someone else to feel the same way they are feeling. Okay, so getting another person to empathize with them. Is this their intended purpose? I'm not sure. Do Fi users actually do this? I'm not sure.
    If you are not in sync with their feelings at certain times you may offend them without realising, even if what you were doing is not offending in nature. Can be troublesome at times.

    Hmm those Fes need to be careful about how they feel others if you know what I mean

    Anyway.

    I agree with the part about Fe users, though I'm not sure about the Fi users part.
    I'm unsure. I believe Fi is easy to grasp in essence and understanding but more difficult to label upon what one perceives as the polar differences between extraversion and introversion. We quickly assume empathy and sympathy are within the polar scale of introversion and extraversion with sympathy and empathy on both ends whereas the actual case may not exist the same. In the jungian definitions of which I just quoted, there exists sympathy in the internal as well as the external where the external is non-existent in Fi. If we were to look at the possibility of its different types one could simply say Fi has internal empathy and sympathy in difference to Fe which would have external empathy and sympathy. I don't know the true definition of sympathy in the case of what Jung wrote but I imagine we shouldn't quickly jump the gun on what is what in terms of empathy and sympathy and try to more accurately define the outline of how the feeling functions direct the feelings.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    It REALLY depends on what it is. Fi projection can either make one extremely empathetic or rather apathetic. How Fe reads the situation can either make them quite understanding (many times empathetic) or very judgmental. Fe is also about interpreting a situation but maybe not quite in the same way like Fi.
    Okay, agreed, except for a couple things. Fi can be either empathetic sympathetic or apathetic. Fe can be either empathetic or judgmental.

    Disregarding my empathetic to sympathetic modification (semantics are just too tricky), is Fi, Fe, or neither more natural at being empathetic?

    I've made some arguments previously for Fe being more natural at being empathetic. But let's look at some empirical evidence:

    Which type is, on average, more empathetic, ESFJs or ISFPs? In my experience, I would definitely say ESFJs.

  9. #59
    Glycerine
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    I don't like to make that judgment call unless you actually get to know the person. It's hard to tell. I am not claiming the prize for either side. Hell, many Ts are more empathetic/sympathetic because they usually don't have their egos built around being empathetic/sympathetic.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    I'm unsure. I believe Fi is easy to grasp in essence and understanding but more difficult to label upon what one perceives as the polar differences between extraversion and introversion. We quickly assume empathy and sympathy are within the polar scale of introversion and extraversion with sympathy and empathy on both ends whereas the actual case may not exist the same. In the jungian definitions of which I just quoted, there exists sympathy in the internal as well as the external where the external is non-existent in Fi. If we were to look at the possibility of its different types one could simply say Fi has internal empathy and sympathy in difference to Fe which would have external empathy and sympathy. I don't know the true definition of sympathy in the case of what Jung wrote but I imagine we shouldn't quickly jump the gun on what is what in terms of empathy and sympathy and try to more accurately define the outline of how the feeling functions direct the feelings.
    Very well said. I think, by definition, sympathy can be both subjective or objective, whereas empathy is strictly objective, thus there is no such polar scale assuming these to be true. Which is what you said. Right, so let's define internal empathy as: Putting yourself in the situation of another and feeling the emotions you yourself would feel. External empathy: Experiencing the emotions of others more or less as they feel them.

    Accurate?

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