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  1. #41
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    You may debate about Fe having its own empathetic stance by the definitions, but you cannot be correct in saying that Fi is in line with the definitions of sympathy.
    From wikipedia: "In order to understand sympathy, it is important to note that empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy, however, does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another."

    This excerpt contradicts #3.

    Also from wikipedia: "Empathy is the capacity to recognize and share feelings that are being experienced by another sentient or semi-sentient being."

    From these definitions, sympathy falls in line with subjectivity, thus falling in line with Fi.

    Regardless of the definitions however, this argument stands:

    I think that Fe is more natural at both solely based on the fact that empathy and sympathy have to do with emotions in relation to other people. Fe is extraverted thus focused on other people more. Fi is introverted thus focused on themselves more.

  2. #42
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    A logical construct is Ti
    An emotional construct is Fi

    A logical protocol or transaction is Te
    An emotional protocol or transaction is Fe

    Ti and Fe have nothing in common.
    Fi and Te have nothing in common.

    As nerdgirl states, they exist as rational functions by Jung's definitions.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    an Fe user see's a crying person and think about how they want to appear in the context of being next to a crying person, and thus search for the appropriate response. an Fi user see's a crying person and thinks about their own pain if they had a reason to cry, and seek what they would have liked to hear.
    This gets into the definitions of sympathy and empathy which I covered in post #27. Besides which, the part which I quoted does not clash with my argument at all. Here is my argument:
    Empathy and sympathy is related to other people's emotions. That which is more related to other people's emotions is more natural at being both empathetic and sympathetic. Fe is more related to to other people's emotions, Fi is more related to one's own emotions, therefore Fe is more natural at being both empathetic and sympathetic.

    This is a deductive argument, if all my premises are true then my conclusion must be true. If you want to prove me wrong you must show that my premises are wrong.

    If we don't do this through formal argument then we are getting nowhere.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    A logical construct is Ti
    An emotional construct is Fi

    A logical protocol or transaction is Te
    An emotional protocol or transaction is Fe

    Ti and Fe have nothing in common.
    Fi and Te have nothing in common.

    As nerdgirl states, they exist as rational functions by Jung's definitions.
    Hmm, I'm not sure if these are accurate or correct. Regardless, what does this have to do with my reply to you?

  5. #45
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    Hmm, I'm not sure if these are accurate or correct. Regardless, what does this have to do with my reply to you?
    I wrote it before I saw you and nerdgirl's post towards me. It is no reply to what you said.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Being more objective doesn't necessarily mean more rational.

    Jung described the thinking and feeling processes as rational and the sensing and intuition processes as irrational.

    Lenore Thomson offers a brain types model of the functions where Te/Fe are on the front-left brain and Fi/Ti are on the back-right brain. Going by that, the left side of the brain is where logical and analytical reasoning occurs. (source: http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Lat...brain_function)
    Okay, I've thought about it. First we need to define what rational means.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    I wrote it before I saw you and nerdgirl's post towards me. It is no reply to what you said.
    Okay, so since semantics can get quite sketchy, what do you have to say about this argument:

    Empathy and sympathy is related to other people's emotions. That which is more related to other people's emotions is more natural at being both empathetic and sympathetic. Fe is more related to to other people's emotions, Fi is more related to one's own emotions, therefore Fe is more natural at being both empathetic and sympathetic.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    Right, then you disagree with the premise that "Being more objective entails being more rational."

    I'm not sure, I'll have to think about it.
    Not sure. I guess it depends on how much external data the subjective type has to work with. The subjective type also has some type of objective perception function.

    EDIT: Even then, I still think we're looking at reliability; not who's more rational.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    From wikipedia: "In order to understand sympathy, it is important to note that empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy, however, does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another."

    This excerpt contradicts #3.

    Also from wikipedia: "Empathy is the capacity to recognize and share feelings that are being experienced by another sentient or semi-sentient being."

    From these definitions, sympathy falls in line with subjectivity, thus falling in line with Fi.

    Regardless of the definitions however, this argument stands:
    Agreed!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    This gets into the definitions of sympathy and empathy which I covered in post #27. Besides which, the part which I quoted does not clash with my argument at all. Here is my argument:
    Empathy and sympathy is related to other people's emotions. That which is more related to other people's emotions is more natural at being both empathetic and sympathetic. Fe is more related to to other people's emotions, Fi is more related to one's own emotions, therefore Fe is more natural at being both empathetic and sympathetic.

    This is a deductive argument, if all my premises are true then my conclusion must be true. If you want to prove me wrong you must show that my premises are wrong.

    If we don't do this through formal argument then we are getting nowhere.
    the circles are getting boring. you see Fe as that which relates to other people, thus everything that relates to other people is more natural to Fe, a.k.a. charity is giving other people money and thus interacting with their financial situation, thieves interact more with other people's money, thieves are more likely to be charitable, or the majority of flying things on earth lay eggs, airplanes are more likely to lay eggs. see the fallacy?

    your missing the pattern within the descriptions and manifestations of Fe, and that is that it relates to one's connections to others in a very certain way, the connections exist regardless of Fe or Fi, but Fe accounts for their perspectives and resulting appearance to reach one's own emotions.

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