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  1. #21
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Just to be fair, there's Fe in sElFish too.
    SelFish has more SeFi in it
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #22
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    That definition was taken straight from dictionary.com.

    And yeah, of course FPs empathize on some level. I would say FPs empathize as if it is themselves in the situation, in other words, in a more subjective fashion. FJs more directly experience the emotions of others, experiencing the other people's actual emotions.

    I think Oakysage's post is relevant here:
    I meant you have misinterepted.
    Unless you are quibbling about what intellectually means.
    I have read oakysages description. It's empirically accurate, but doesn't describe the shades of grey. Also doesn't prove your point. In fact, he states when we assign value we empathize. Wisps and vapours.
    Just because you hold an opinion, it doesn't make it fact, you my friend are playing a game of semantics.
    Empathy=/=socially programmed emotional responses.
    Actually Oakysage's quote is in more alignment with my argument, as we experience the situation, filter it through our cognitive functions, judge it as worthy of a response according to how we feel. Once we get to that point, it's a conscious proccess to be considered intellectual.Thus for filling the requirements of your definition.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  3. #23
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    Fe - objective - Feels something because something (external) made them feel that way.
    Fi - subjective - Feels something with no further justification.


  4. #24
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I'm curious, which is the more rational function, Fe or Fi? I thought it was Fi, but now I'm thinking that's not correct. Fe is a left-brain function and Fi is right-brain, correct? (Golly, this is awkward. I may need to redo my hypothesis.)
    I would say Fe, solely on the fact that Fe is objective and Fi is subjective. If you assume this to be true though, you also assume that Te is more rational than Ti.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    I would say Fe, solely on the fact that Fe is objective and Fi is subjective. If you assume this to be true though, you also assume that Te is more rational than Ti.
    The more I think about it, I wouldn't say Te is more rational than Ti. More accurately, I think Te is more fact-based than Ti because it's influenced by external data and probably also more reliable (for that reason). Just a thought.

    The subjective/objective thing, I agree with.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    The more I think about it, I wouldn't say Te is more rational than Ti. More accurately, I think Te is more fact-based than Ti because it's influenced by external data and probably also more reliable (for that reason). Just a thought.

    The subjective/objective thing, I agree with.
    Agreed, Te is more fact based (though is that relevant?).

    Anyway, the real question is, do you think that Te is objective and Ti subjective?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrystalViolet View Post
    I meant you have misinterepted.
    Unless you are quibbling about what intellectually means.
    I have read oakysages description. It's empirically accurate, but doesn't describe the shades of grey. Also doesn't prove your point. In fact, he states when we assign value we empathize. Wisps and vapours.
    Just because you hold an opinion, it doesn't make it fact, you my friend are playing a game of semantics.
    Empathy=/=socially programmed emotional responses.
    Actually Oakysage's quote is in more alignment with my argument, as we experience the situation, filter it through our cognitive functions, judge it as worthy of a response according to how we feel. Once we get to that point, it's a conscious proccess to be considered intellectual.Thus for filling the requirements of your definition.
    What I was trying to point out with Oakysage's quote is the subjective nature of Fi even when it comes to empathizing.

    When an Fi user perceives a situation and judges upon it, they feel the situation as if it was them within it. By example: A person may cry and be upset because he broke his pen, whereas the Fi user within the situation may not care about the broken pen at all and so would feel no negativity about seeing the other person cry about his pen. Of course this could also mean that an Fi user may feel worse about a situation that another person may find more trivial. Value is by subject of situation as well as person and so if the Fi user values the person in which the pen is broken, the Fi user may more closely empathise with the emotion.
    Empathizing is experiencing the actual emotions of another person. Pass it through a subjective filter and you're experiencing emotions that you would feel, not necessarily what the other person would actually feel or is actually feeling. There is no such subjective filter with Fe.

    On sympathy (taken from wikipedia): "Sympathy, however, does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another."

    So, in Oakysage's quote, he is talking about sympathy not empathy (two similar but distinctly different words). If you assume Oakysage's post to be true, then you also assume Nerd Girl's post to be true: That Fe is more natural at empathy, and Fi more natural at sympathy.

    However, I disagree, I think that Fe is more natural at both solely based on the fact that empathy and sympathy have to do with emotions in relation to other people. Fe is extraverted thus focused on other people more. Fi is introverted thus focused on themselves more.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    Agreed, Te is more fact based (though is that relevant?).
    I think so because the same rationale applies to Fe. (I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't.)

    Anyway, the real question is, do you think that Te is objective and Ti subjective?
    Yes, I think Te is definitely objective and Ti is subjective.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    What I was trying to point out with Oakysage's quote is the subjective nature of Fi even when it comes to empathizing.

    Empathizing is experiencing the actual emotions of another person. Pass it through a subjective filter and you're experiencing emotions that you would feel, not necessarily what the other person would actually feel or is actually feeling. There is no such subjective filter with Fe.

    On sympathy (taken from wikipedia): "Sympathy, however, does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another."

    So, in Oakysage's quote, he is talking about sympathy not empathy (two similar but distinctly different words). If you assume Oakysage's post to be true, then you also assume Nerd Girl's post to be true: That Fe is more natural at empathy, and Fi more natural at sympathy.

    However, I disagree, I think that Fe is more natural at both solely based on the fact that empathy and sympathy have to do with emotions in relation to other people. Fe is extraverted thus focused on other people more. Fi is introverted thus focused on themselves more.
    I agree with you.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Yes, I think Te is definitely objective and Ti is subjective.
    Great, now we can get into some critical reasoning

    I would say Fe, solely on the fact that Fe is objective and Fi is subjective.
    So, this in argument form is:

    Being more objective entails being more rational. Being more subjective entails being more irrational. Fe is objective, Fi is subjective, therefore Fe is more rational and Fi and more irrational.

    Now let's take the same premises and apply it to Te and Ti.

    Being more objective entails being more rational. Being more subjective entails being more irrational. Te is objective, Ti is subjective, therefore Te is more rational and Ti and more irrational.

    If you believe these to be true: Being more objective entails being more rational. Being more subjective entails being more irrational.

    AND

    You believe this to be true: Te is objective and Ti subjective.

    Then this must be true: Te is more rational and Ti more irrational.

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