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  1. #21
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    This sounds like wanting to change the keyboard because it looks prettier a different way. I type pretty fast so it's going to inconvenience me. It's not wrong to change your own keyboard but if I come over your house it's silly to complain to me that that I don't type as fast on your keyboard.

    I also read pretty fast so having to take time to realize that someone is typing faev to mean five actually ruins the flow of conversation for me. I don't like when people write in accents in books either, it makes me get out of the story and have to spend time deciphering how they decided to spell an accent. I'm not reading something for the letters, I'm reading it to comprehend it. Focusing on the letters is going to make the flow of information much slower. I do better if the story tells me that someone is talking in an accent than I do if someone is trying to write in an accent.

    This is probably one reason I don't type in text speak (other than dumb acronyms like lol) because when I type

    u want 2 go b4 game
    vs.
    you want to go before the game?

    It takes me longer to type the first sentence and it takes me longer to read the first sentence!

  2. #22
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    @Marmie Dearest

    also, i would liek to point out: your making the mistake of not using your Te, your basically blurting out very individualistic ideals as they are, without any attempt of thinking which of them i might useful.
    tip: by thinking from others perspectives, you not only save wisdom wasted but can target your wisdom in more efficient way, thus more likely to find bridge between us from existing functions instead of desperately trying to convert me into Ni.
    its something ive been working on, and something you too should, and something which will always in the end benefit both parties involved.

    also to be honest, you sound like an angry idealist on a rampage trying desperately to spread your ideals, thats good.. but to do that you will require to constantly develop Te, and to do that you must acknowledge the fact, that your dominant function, Fi, is actually slave to your Te. if you cant find peace with yourself, your Te development will stay in desperate ramblings.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    This sounds like wanting to change the keyboard because it looks prettier a different way. I type pretty fast so it's going to inconvenience me. It's not wrong to change your own keyboard but if I come over your house it's silly to complain to me that that I don't type as fast on your keyboard.

    I also read pretty fast so having to take time to realize that someone is typing faev to mean five actually ruins the flow of conversation for me. I don't like when people write in accents in books either, it makes me get out of the story and have to spend time deciphering how they decided to spell an accent. I'm not reading something for the letters, I'm reading it to comprehend it. Focusing on the letters is going to make the flow of information much slower. I do better if the story tells me that someone is talking in an accent than I do if someone is trying to write in an accent.

    This is probably one reason I don't type in text speak (other than dumb acronyms like lol) because when I type

    u want 2 go b4 game
    vs.
    you want to go before the game?

    It takes me longer to type the first sentence and it takes me longer to read the first sentence!
    i do take efficacy to highest priority, too, although speaking in accents is something done entirely for the entertainment, not information exhange. ive figured, best combination to include also feelings in the flow is by using interjections, this however requires real time flow between us for there to be the feeling bridge formed. most efficient = the way you speak minus accent, that way what you learn here is used there and the other way. as well as interjections, but as mentioned, one doesnt really have use for them without the real time connection. (which is why i would change every second line parsed into total mirror for double reading speed, change text to dyslex and its 4x, 2x, that equals 8 times faster reading than this, which leaves the conclusion, if we use this EIGHT times slower method, what the fk is point of efficacy when we could have 8 times faster but no, stupid humans use this instead.

    EDIT i also find accent speaking very good mental practice for both sides!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    indeed, but its the dangerous blind belief of one way being correct which is slowing said development of language. every now and then, we all come across these people who preach their divine spell check on everyone they meet.. you know, its annoying, but at least people are finally starting to get the idea theres more than one correct way.

    i know im already dropping behind the technological development, as ridiculous as that might sound for someone of my age. lol
    when i go to internet, if i want to communicate, i go to forums, although real time interactive options have long arrived, and taken the standard way of textual communication on internet by now.

    english seems to be on verge of dividing into two paths, those who make it simpler, standardize everything, remove words, use dictionaries and rules years behind the actual innovation, the pioneers of english development. london is one good example of cities with high pioneer percentages, with their constantly developing accent.
    these standardizers are what we know as american english, simple english and oxford english. each preaching their dictionaries as divine, trying to take over the world, with an aggression comparable to religions.
    and then there are the real english speakers, who speak without following some divine order of dictionary, but rather follow what the language for what it actually is than what they wish it was.
    It's true that there's no "correct" way--there are just standards for communication, and standards evolve over time. It sometimes sucks that we have to take the standards for what they are, but we're not going to change the way the world communicates and receives others' communication overnight. Moreover, none of us are going to do it by ourselves.

    Some are trying to club others over the head with their own set of standards, sure, but any good communicator knows that you have to learn the other person's manner of speaking, vocabulary, and language in order to bridge a gap with them. So, for many people, it's about learning the territory overall--not about converting another person to their way of speaking.

    Those who don't try to do so are lying to themselves with respect to their actual goals. They don't want to bridge the gap; they want to persecute and convert others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    @Marmie Dearest

    also, i would liek to point out: your making the mistake of not using your Te, your basically blurting out very individualistic ideals as they are, without any attempt of thinking which of them i might useful.
    tip: by thinking from others perspectives, you not only save wisdom wasted but can target your wisdom in more efficient way, thus more likely to find bridge between us from existing functions instead of desperately trying to convert me into Ni.
    its something ive been working on, and something you too should, and something which will always in the end benefit both parties involved.

    also to be honest, you sound like an angry idealist on a rampage trying desperately to spread your ideals, thats good.. but to do that you will require to constantly develop Te, and to do that you must acknowledge the fact, that your dominant function, Fi, is actually slave to your Te. if you cant find peace with yourself, your Te development will stay in desperate ramblings.
    What type are you? Whatever it is, someone could very easily find a way to tie your preferred cognitive functions into an argument that shows that your perspective is messed up and that you have some growing up to do as well.

    You started this thread bewildered that other people don't understand you. I think that your own advice about understanding others' perspectives is a sound way to tackle that problem, and I'm glad that that's something you recognize.

    Often, type gets in the way of truly understanding the people who are giving you feedback. It's easy to use it to diagnose others and to discount their viewpoints.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    What type are you? Whatever it is, someone could very easily find a way to tie your preferred cognitive functions into an argument that shows that your perspective is messed up and that you have some growing up to do as well.

    You started this thread bewildered that other people don't understand you. I think that your own advice about understanding others' perspectives is a sound way to tackle that problem, and I'm glad that that's something you recognize.
    Obviously NT, likely INTJ.

  6. #26
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Bespoke DNA

    There is grammar. And there is the use of grammar.

    Shakespeare went to a Grammar School then put grammar to work.

    There is the grammar of language. There is the grammar of the keyboard. There is the grammar of movement. And there is the grammar of DNA.

    So we might say we are bespoke DNA.

  7. #27
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    This sounds like wanting to change the keyboard because it looks prettier a different way. I type pretty fast so it's going to inconvenience me. It's not wrong to change your own keyboard but if I come over your house it's silly to complain to me that that I don't type as fast on your keyboard.

    I also read pretty fast so having to take time to realize that someone is typing faev to mean five actually ruins the flow of conversation for me. I don't like when people write in accents in books either, it makes me get out of the story and have to spend time deciphering how they decided to spell an accent. I'm not reading something for the letters, I'm reading it to comprehend it. Focusing on the letters is going to make the flow of information much slower. I do better if the story tells me that someone is talking in an accent than I do if someone is trying to write in an accent.

    This is probably one reason I don't type in text speak (other than dumb acronyms like lol) because when I type

    u want 2 go b4 game
    vs.
    you want to go before the game?

    It takes me longer to type the first sentence and it takes me longer to read the first sentence!
    I pretty much agree with this.

    Non-standardised writing styles are exhausting to read and I tend to skip over it when I come across it. Written languages are based on signifiers of common meaning; the point is to use a common code that everyone (who can read that language) can easily interpret. Using a personalised code that others can't immediately understand, means they have to literally decipher it; they have to break your specific code and their brains must work harder to do so. Ironically, this is similar to what many dyslexics experience with ordinary written language.

    You have to ask yourself whether it's more important to express yourself authentically or if it's more important to be readily understood. Personally, my immediate instinctive reaction to people who write like that, is to think them stupid and annoying. Stupid because it reads like what a child would write; and annoying because it feels like they're intentionally putting obstacles in the way of me understanding them and I very much dislike clambering over each one in order to accommodate their whims. This may sound judgemental but that's how it feels. I recognise that you speak English as a second language and that you are dyslexic and I think people should be forgiving of you for that, but you shouldn't be surprised if they find you difficult to understand.

    And "faev" means "five"?! I still didn't have that worked out.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #28
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    It's true that there's no "correct" way--there are just standards for communication, and standards evolve over time. It sometimes sucks that we have to take the standards for what they are, but we're not going to change the way the world communicates and receives others' communication overnight. Moreover, none of us are going to do it by ourselves.

    Some are trying to club others over the head with their own set of standards, sure, but any good communicator knows that you have to learn the other person's manner of speaking, vocabulary, and language in order to bridge a gap with them. So, for many people, it's about learning the territory overall--not about converting another person to their way of speaking.

    Those who don't try to do so are lying to themselves with respect to their actual goals. They don't want to bridge the gap; they want to persecute and convert others.


    What type are you? Whatever it is, someone could very easily find a way to tie your preferred cognitive functions into an argument that shows that your perspective is messed up and that you have some growing up to do as well.

    You started this thread bewildered that other people don't understand you. I think that your own advice about understanding others' perspectives is a sound way to tackle that problem, and I'm glad that that's something you recognize.

    Often, type gets in the way of truly understanding the people who are giving you feedback. It's easy to use it to diagnose others and to discount their viewpoints.
    ive been drifting from personality to another for quite some years now, but i suspect enfp is my natural preference for thats the one i became without knowledge of mbti when i finally had a few months in my life where i wouldnt have to worry of next days.

    of course, we all do, after all intelligence is possible only by creating an illusion which gives intelligence something to work off as it dies without something to work, for intelligence has no purpose to exist, other than illusion.
    and maintaining that paradox of illusion is not easy task for any of us, but completely necessary for intelligence to exist, as i mentioned, intelligence dies off if without something to serve as a slave to.
    and studying my own illusion is how i do it by, i rather attempt to have maximum control over my life than be just another pig following preset illusions without trying to perfect them for maximum enjoyment of life.

    you mightve mistaken the tone i gave, which was what it was as i considered she already posesses a will to progress, thus i wont have to convince her of the benefits, and this enables me to make myself clearer by vomitting only the useful data. sometimes people know what they need to do to progress but require convincing, and sometimes its the other way. ESTP's and ISTJ's would be excellent example of types which more often hangs in requiring convincing rather than teaching to mature. as they have heard their whole lives of complaints on how immoral and tight headed they are, thus only require someone to convince them into making a change. which is a rather heavy task..

    oh, and for example of my current weaknesses: self awareness, feelings. although i can control my feelings like dubsteb and thus make music inside my head which isnt even auditory, it seems theres a strong link between strength of my feelings, with my self awareness.
    for example, if i brainstormed of my past, even if i were only comparing the mindsets ive had throghout my past without any other purpose than data comparison to the old, it still strengthens my feelings by a magnitude enough to be noticed by myself.
    (and the controlling, which is done by varying the input i place for my feelings to review, which is done by analyzing each feeling and creating rooms for each different feeling inside my head and labeling them with the name of said feeling. on which, im actually running short, my only houses of feelings there are wonder, and content wonder. these houses are custom constructed to have a theme of said feelings, like house wonder is completely transparable and anything might happen there, and often i get kicked out of there quite quick as it strays onto something else, while content wonder is a specific mental state which is a mixture of sadness and satisfied wonder, nothing changes there, everything just is, only thing changing is, the house gaining higher quality the more time spent there. also my imaginary body gains more sensory imaginary input there, as that house is all about tweaking the quality of my inner world into higher.)

    and i wasnt really bewildered, just my joking tone on my apparently impossible grammars i used, but yes. it is, quite shocking how shrunken language abilities people may poses yet still be actually able to stay in society. or at least in the internet if not society.

    well, i mightve known for long, in scientific levels how intelligence has simply no purpose to exist, and we are merely vessels of illusion rising from the ground to habit this not so strange existence, posessing our illusory views which attempt to keep intelligence running as slaves to run these machines.
    (which is actually why we age, our bodies have programmed self destruction to prevent the intelligence and programming in general from deviating from the path which has proven to survive well. considering we have survived to the now moment, majority of species have not.)

    since intelligence is entirely controlled by illusion, i see it beneficial for said intelligence to understand itself to control its own illusion, which i now understand in a deeper than scientific level. thus concept ego has no use for me, other than to point at this specific vessel of cell community i am, in the sea of other cell communities constructing what we call us humans.

    and yes, the very point of these illusions is to create a paradox, progress and you have more to progress as progress bears more progressing to do with it.
    for example the mbti loop goes from 1st function to 4th, then 4th is actually master of the 1st creating a complete loop which processes information, yet the information processed can never be done 100% due the very paradoxes each type has. while aiming for as highest as possible will always benefit the quality of information posessed by your system, thus leading to higher quality life in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    There is grammar. And there is the use of grammar.

    Shakespeare went to a Grammar School then put grammar to work.

    There is the grammar of language. There is the grammar of the keyboard. There is the grammar of movement. And there is the grammar of DNA.

    So we might say we are bespoke DNA.
    "in soviet russia, grammar schools follow shakespeare!"
    that, would be the correct order. you cant create language if you have no platform able to use it, in our case, the platform is us and our machines whom rather prefer binary.
    and as we humans dont seem to know much of our capabilities, it would be a blind shot to say there are universal rules in english.

    the only rule is, be understood, and human brain is a fascinating machine.. we could speak entirely grammatically "incorrect" yet have no comprehension problems at all.

    i dont follow any grmmar rules, yet i have a very good idea of what is understandable, what not, and how the language works. as i observe language for what it is, directly inside my head instead of trying to make sense of it outside.

    and ive come quite firmly to see it all depends on the context. just to invent a word alone you need a context for it, and when word has inherent context, using it with other words can create whole new contexts without needing new words to explain yourself. just new arranging of already common contexts.
    i could say as an example a word ive invented myself, outstupid, by using it in a context where someone is displaying stupidity of magnitude seen stupid by a significant proportion of humans on earth, it becomes so stupid word stupid alone could not bear to describe ones actions. for example, people spamming nonsensual messages like "GAY!" on my little pony videos at youtube, are highly likely 13 year old american kids who dont question what standards their society has set upon them bur rather go with the flow, and thus spread hate onwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Obviously NT, likely INTJ.
    at around age 12 i discovered the true purpose of intelligence, which is to follow illusions, and this made the whole idea of intelligence obsolete to me, something im learning to use to enjoy life more now, as i never enjoyed what i became as children due people praising my mathetamical and intellectual abilities.
    i only enjoyed it for so long until discovering the truth of intelligence.
    as i was, only under the illusion of intelligence having a purpose which it doesnt have. yeah, just slaves of illusion, and its the only way to live.
    doesnt matter if your buddha or an einstein, still all slaves. of illusion.
    well, better follow illusion knowingly than not knowing your following illusion..

    although im not currently on a loop with Ni, i do remember my short few weeks/months as in an infj loop was interesting. it became boring quickly as everything seemed too easy in knowledge sense and only way to progress more was by developing said abilities into penetrating deeper under surface, which had interesting effects like: when reading, i do saw the text, but i wasnt reading the text, i was reading something behind the text which the text gave me an access to.
    also my social abilities were impaired on that mode, i just couldnt lead a conversation, instead i had to aim to make the other produce something emotional for me to eavesdrop on. on which i found only an isfp were able to produce something complex enough for an infj, it does make me wonder how they can bear to live with such high abilities as nothing is challenging to them.

    for almost a year now i havent remembered my past, which enabled this change into Ni+Se, but i always had the concept of past before that, even though i always hated and wanted to forget it. and thats enough proof of my natural orientation posessing Ne+Si in it. also for majority of my life time i hated my looks, which caused me into shrinking down into thinking too much, yet there always were a sense of this is not me. and only tiem in my life i felt myself, was when i could just mod oblivion, read fanfiction (romance mostly), voice chat in english 16 hours a day, all of them, and often mixing the activities together. and listen russian music while doing them.
    i think those alone all point to enfp preference.
    (what intj can chat 16 hours a day nonstop and keep at it for 3 months nonstop while at all times loving it? yeah, not one.)

    although there still are disputes inside my head, as the functions battle for dominance. also i had eating disorder for majority of my life before forgetting my past, as i always felt like puking just from the thought of having to eat, and the need to eat would never stop. as i could remember the tastes too well, and the thought of need to digest food never ending horrified me greatly.
    i wonder if these return with opening the boundaries between me and my past, although my better intelligence illusion understanding should provide me the tools to tweak how i experience the world to prevent irrational paradoxes which feed themselves like that one.

    and my transistion to enfp loop has been rather painless as it appears i poses earlier knowledge on how to operate that setting, unlike like on infj where i were under complete chaos, just having to trust blindly the path i chose at the time. (oh and not to mention how i went from infj to enfj, i was under physical torment due to breathing smoke, i breth'd(funny, thats how i pronounce it, yet wrote it accidentally like that except '.) it there for a whole night consciously while having my head tied around by blanket and not even getting enough oxygen to keep my blood warm, yet the whole time felt an extacy of endless love to the said world torturing me, LOL. =O..

    but i wouldnt know, for majority of my lifetime ive felt as if im not myself.
    after dropping the concept of ego everything has been easier to me.
    although as i did mention that one time back there, i did lose the concept without even noticing it, but then i never held any importance to said concept.

    lets just say im wandering to find my path.
    although i did notice i became off tune with my feelings while writing this, due the high amount of logic orientation of topic under discussion.
    ughf, it _is_ confusing as to what my natural orientation is.. when i seem to have found stability at one setting, the idea of distrusting it comes along.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I pretty much agree with this.

    Non-standardised writing styles are exhausting to read and I tend to skip over it when I come across it. Written languages are based on signifiers of common meaning; the point is to use a common code that everyone (who can read that language) can easily interpret. Using a personalised code that others can't immediately understand, means they have to literally decipher it; they have to break your specific code and their brains must work harder to do so. Ironically, this is similar to what many dyslexics experience with ordinary written language.

    You have to ask yourself whether it's more important to express yourself authentically or if it's more important to be readily understood. Personally, my immediate instinctive reaction to people who write like that, is to think them stupid and annoying. Stupid because it reads like what a child would write; and annoying because it feels like they're intentionally putting obstacles in the way of me understanding them and I very much dislike clambering over each one in order to accommodate their whims. This may sound judgemental but that's how it feels. I recognise that you speak English as a second language and that you are dyslexic and I think people should be forgiving of you for that, but you shouldn't be surprised if they find you difficult to understand.

    And "faev" means "five"?! I still didn't have that worked out.
    yes it means five, its a reference to using australian a and e to create specific sound.

    ive come to the conclusion of jumping in between be clear and express feelings mode, for information exchange clarity, for fun time and brain exercise custom mode, but ive also made decision to attempt making the bridge between these two settings i use closer, meaning clarity would also at times include interjections to exclaim feelings related to the context communicated, aahhnnd the personalized for fun/brain exercise style be more clear, more constructed, consciously wighting on how to develop it forwards etc.

  9. #29
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I do think that ENFP's end up wanting people to understand how they would actually say things rather than the booooring way typing looks.

    I got this email last night from an enfp friend:

    Looooove the cute nanimal pix link *great big huge teeth grin* They are s.o.h. mu cutenesss the awesomeness was ah-ma-zing!

    <snip> M just sat/hung there and w.a.i.t.e.d for me (and my camera) to take that picture. It was pure luck that Laurie was making _that_ face at juuuust the right times - yay!

    And yes _for the record_ that was the firstest time that M actually _posed_ for a picture... it may be <snip>
    This was this morning:

    aaallll twiterpated about it ;]

    Glad to "hear" that y'all seem to be feeling better (d/t lack of complaining about it anymore *happy face*). And on the "new matter before the court" -- ROFFLE!
    Now with my comments here in this thread it sounds like I shouldn't like her emails. But even thought they often make me laugh I don't mind at all. Sometimes I am so expressive in real life that type just seems really limiting so I can understand it.

    I've also found that often enfps want to type with pauses... as if they are thinking... (or parentheses because they always add random things into conversations and this shows the random add ons the best)

    I guess you just need the right audience

  10. #30
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    yes it means five, its a reference to using australian a and e to create specific sound.

    ive come to the conclusion of jumping in between be clear and express feelings mode, for information exchange clarity, for fun time and brain exercise custom mode, but ive also made decision to attempt making the bridge between these two settings i use closer, meaning clarity would also at times include interjections to exclaim feelings related to the context communicated, aahhnnd the personalized for fun/brain exercise style be more clear, more constructed, consciously wighting on how to develop it forwards etc.
    Mocking accents doesn't translate well to writing unless it is clearly stated or fits within the subject being discussed. Otherwise, people won't make that connection; it's too esoteric and too random to be expected. Writing is not a straight-forward conversion of spoken words to letters on the page; there has to be some alterations for the sake of clarity and to convey the stuff body language, expressions, and tone of voice would normally demonstrate easily. Remember people aren't in your head, anticipating your intentions, reading your words in your voice, with your tone in mind - they come at them blindly, without expectations. They can only go on what is written down and infer from there. If you give them nothing to go on and use esoteric allusions or jokes, they are will be confused and left to guess at your meaning.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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