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  1. #11
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    Were you doing a voice in your head when you were scwiblin? It only counts if you did.
    yes, but i prefer to speak aloud as voice acting is.. soo FUN! =D
    but it makes me sad when i do that, as i know the textual version could never compete my voice, which is left unhread by others ='(

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You also should probably take into account that everyone doesn't learn languages equally well. Some people have poor language acquisition, but excellent math skills (mine are terrible).

    In fact those of us more comfortable with language may actually be more likely to be all like "Ah ehm in teh slam shed" ...I honestly think that people who are good with language probably find Intertardz speak and other slang-y variations of language amusing.

    People who are really insecure may be more likely to be pedantic. I encountered on this web site a woman who seems to have trouble expressing herself clearly say more than once "you have poor reading comprehension!" just because I didn't interpret what she wrote the way she meant it, or because I didn't respond in the way she expected. I made a perfect score on reading comprehension on the ACT when I entered college, and maintained an 3.9 GPA as an English Lit major, so I really don't think *my* comprehension is the problem...but people like her are big on correcting others, even though they're the type that are sadly sadly the ones with poor reading comprehension ...this daft bitch can be tricked by "big words" when the content of the paragraph is as empty as Christ's tomb.

    Sorry, she really bugs me.

    Anyway, yeah...I suck at math. So...it's not always a good idea to pick on people who don't have language as their strongest skill, either.

    Also, some of us are better auditory learners, so it's easier for us to not only have precise word recognition, but also easily sound things out, or pick up other people's pronunciation and accents. If you have both - verbal and auditory, which I suspect you do - then this will give you a huge, huge advantage over people with different kinds of intelligence.


    yes, but i also prefer not to use calculators ever, good mental exercise.
    although.. i never really used them, and as a child i were praised too much for my mathematical abilities which drove me into becoming something i didnt enjoy.
    and i agree with most if not all of the points you made on previous post, its just hypocritical to scold of others writing if you dont invest _any_ effort into learning the language, you cant expect a language to be downgraded just for you. (you know the people with two thousand words vocabulary, who repeat same words all, all the time. most often vulgarity is present in their speech, as well as lack of modesty in any forms. and yes, these are natives often, and some native finnish speakers complain me for not speaking in a vulgaric manner, i suppose these people exist everywhere..)

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    This.

    I may have been shocked if I understood the message, but I don't know if I did. I think that the message that nobody understands the OP. But that's not particularly shocking, given its delivery, so maybe I misunderstood the message.

    (If it isn't crystal-clear, I'm being sarcastic about the OP writing in an indecipherable style about frustrations with indecipherability.)


    On one hand, it can be frustrating trying to get your thoughts and ideas across to people in a meaningful and understandable way. On the other hand, if other people constantly misunderstand you, all the time, then it's more reasonable for you to adjust your communication style than to expect the entire world to bend to yours.

    It's lazy for people to not attempt to understand a speaker, sure, but it's also lazy for a speaker to vomit thoughts out there without regard to his audience. If you give a damn about being heard or understood at all, it helps to assume that most of the burden is on you to communicate your message effectively.
    you see, when i write in the oh so proper, wikipedia mode, majority understand me but i dont enjoy the limitations on self expressivity.
    then theres this 5% who have too small vocabulary to understand it.
    when i am not in such mode, theres this 5% who only understand wikipedian.
    and, the wikipedians wont understand anything else as mentioned, neither will the another 5% mentioned understand wikipedian.

    thus i have to dissatisfy one of the 5%, including myself were i to choose wikipedian.

    normally i could speak just fine by choosing wikipedian, cause majority of my expressivity is anyways done by body language/voice acting, but same applies not on writing. if i dont enjoy writing, then whats the point even?

    lets say there is an information flow rate, lets say 100 is avarage.
    it can be cut into slices, 75% expressivity by body language, 15% by voice quality and 10% by what you say. thats my estimation for myself, but when you go textual, then there is this excess of 90% of what i wish to communicate to you left unheard, unless i attempt to bring it all across through writing, which leads to the paradox of me writing slower than i get new ideas, which equals in over five thousand word length messages. and people complain when i write too long.

    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    Are you high?
    am i high? if you consider meditation a drug, then YES! =D, or mindfullness in my case, why would i sit on some silly pose if can meditate whenever wherever whatever im doing with? =) singing + meditation, thats the best drug EVER! makes information flow in brain like an ant hill under attack by human urine! and yes i know from experience. but eh, if iwere to try any drug which isnt already in my body by nature, id choose cannabis in form of steam, as i could never suspect my body under something as hazardous as pyrolysis.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post


    you see, when i write in the oh so proper, wikipedia mode, majority understand me but i dont enjoy the limitations on self expressivity.
    then theres this 5% who have too small vocabulary to understand it.
    when i am not in such mode, theres this 5% who only understand wikipedian.
    and, the wikipedians wont understand anything else as mentioned, neither will the another 5% mentioned understand wikipedian.

    thus i have to dissatisfy one of the 5%, including myself were i to choose wikipedian.

    normally i could speak just fine by choosing wikipedian, cause majority of my expressivity is anyways done by body language/voice acting, but same applies not on writing. if i dont enjoy writing, then whats the point even?

    lets say there is an information flow rate, lets say 100 is avarage.
    it can be cut into slices, 75% expressivity by body language, 15% by voice quality and 10% by what you say. thats my estimation for myself, but when you go textual, then there is this excess of 90% of what i wish to communicate to you left unheard, unless i attempt to bring it all across through writing, which leads to the paradox of me writing slower than i get new ideas, which equals in over five thousand word length messages. and people complain when i write too long.
    .
    You can't really complain if you feel proper language structure limits your self-expression. I feel the same, which is why I speak in variation of obnoxious slang and lolcat speak, and it sure does lead people astray into thinking I'm less educated, which in some cases is fine with me, but in other cases I just turn around and throw my learnin' at them if they're being especially an asshole about it, just to show that I CAN IF I SO CHOOSE.

    I recommend you do the same. Just speak the way you feel, if other people can't understand, either fuck it or speak more clearly so that they can.

    I honestly had sympathy for you when I first began responding to the post, because I thought people were judging you for not having English as your first language, or for being dyslexic, but now that I realize that you're just being arrogant, I'll bid you aideu.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You can't really complain if you feel proper language structure limits your self-expression. I feel the same, which is why I speak in variation of obnoxious slang and lolcat speak, and it sure does lead people astray into thinking I'm less educated, which in some cases is fine with me, but in other cases I just turn around and throw my learnin' at them if they're being especially an asshole about it, just to show that I CAN IF I SO CHOOSE.

    I recommend you do the same. Just speak the way you feel, if other people can't understand, either fuck it or speak more clearly so that they can.

    I honestly had sympathy for you when I first began responding to the post, because I thought people were judging you for not having English as your first language, or for being dyslexic, but now that I realize that you're just being arrogant, I'll bid you aideu.
    arogant? im merely annoyed of certain kind of self centered people, and yes even though i might have more than several weaknesses on my way, i wont let it stop me from reaching the best i can do.

    yes, i have been trying to learn more of my feelings, recently, for the past few days nonstop. maybe a week. and i do try to find best possible ways to express them even on the inrternet where my several weaknesses affect dearly, not to mention people who expect me to serve them exactly the kind of grammars they want, its impossible to satisfy everyone, and im finally starting to choose myself.
    that is, thanks to what i have learned by practicing mindfullness to discover deeper feelings and generally boost my ability to feel.

  4. #14
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Um... I was a full-on French major with a minor in Russian, I did a masters in language studies and I have studied several other languages. I don't see how you can claim to be good with languages-- the language you are using is not English. A person who can read English shouldn't have to struggle to read what someone is writing, presumably in English. Yes, when I sounded out what you wrote I could read it, but the point of language is for communication, and that kind of butchery of the language impedes communication.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
    TypeC: Adventures of an Introvert
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    arogant? im merely annoyed of certain kind of self centered people, and yes even though i might have more than several weaknesses on my way, i wont let it stop me from reaching the best i can do.

    yes, i have been trying to learn more of my feelings, recently, for the past few days nonstop. maybe a week. and i do try to find best possible ways to express them even on the inrternet where my several weaknesses affect dearly, not to mention people who expect me to serve them exactly the kind of grammars they want, its impossible to satisfy everyone, and im finally starting to choose myself.
    that is, thanks to what i have learned by practicing mindfullness to discover deeper feelings and generally boost my ability to feel.
    Yes, you're arrogant. Like Aquarelle said, the point of language is communication. So if you're doing this on purpose, and not because of your lack of English spelling and grammar, and not because of your dyslexia, you're doing it for your own creativity and amusement. Which is fine, nothing wrong with it. But if certain people can't understand it, then either re-state what you meant in a more structured way, or don't talk to those particular people since they aren't on your "wavelength."

    You're the one being self-centered, though, expecting people to de-code your mutations of language. The other person would be self-centered if they were judging you for making spelling or grammar mistakes that you genuinely didn't mean to make, or that were very minor and they knew what you were saying.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, you're arrogant. Like Aquarelle said, the point of language is communication. So if you're doing this on purpose, and not because of your lack of English spelling and grammar, and not because of your dyslexia, you're doing it for your own creativity and amusement. Which is fine, nothing wrong with it. But if certain people can't understand it, then either re-state what you meant in a more structured way, or don't talk to those particular people since they aren't on your "wavelength."

    You're the one being self-centered, though, expecting people to de-code your mutations of language. The other person would be self-centered if they were judging you for making spelling or grammar mistakes that you genuinely didn't mean to make, or that were very minor and they knew what you were saying.
    if i make a mistake, its there for being too obvious to need correction.
    i have learned to visualize text, but i suppose as she also said sounded out, just as happens to be the only way i process languages.
    i can do it for half sentence lenght as like for custom writing something to imply emotions into the language.

    or when im actualyl conscious of what i write, is, when i write what you call mutations, done creatively on purpose.

    when im not conscious is, when im writing in the all proper grammars.
    i refuse to "correct" something which doesnt require correction to be understood, like those obvious off key mistakes which everyone understands. just as happen to happen due my lack of working hand.

    and yes i do expect people to decode any mutation which were made to be understood, its good exercise for everyone. not doing it will lead to the said ability shrinking down into such a level, where people complain even for write wrongs. "oh noes, my preciooss eyes hurt!"

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    if i make a mistake, its there for being too obvious to need correction.
    i have learned to visualize text, but i suppose as she also said sounded out, just as happens to be the only way i process languages.
    i can do it for half sentence lenght as like for custom writing something to imply emotions into the language.

    or when im actualyl conscious of what i write, is, when i write what you call mutations, done creatively on purpose.

    when im not conscious is, when im writing in the all proper grammars.
    i refuse to "correct" something which doesnt require correction to be understood, like those obvious off key mistakes which everyone understands. just as happen to happen due my lack of working hand.

    and yes i do expect people to decode any mutation which were made to be understood, its good exercise for everyone. not doing it will lead to the said ability shrinking down into such a level, where people complain even for write wrongs. "oh noes, my preciooss eyes hurt!"
    You're entirely self-absorbed. It's almost shocking. You have no concept that what may look "obvious" to you may not be obvious to another person, or that other people are more adept at singing opera or building airplanes than decoding language.

    Seriously, the more you say, the more I wonder how you manage to walk around each day without getting smacked in the face.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You're entirely self-absorbed. It's almost shocking. You have no concept that what may look "obvious" to you may not be obvious to another person, or that other people are more adept at singing opera or building airplanes than decoding language.

    Seriously, the more you say, the more I wonder how you manage to walk around each day without getting smacked in the face.
    there are several articles documenting the downfall of english, as it has been at it ever since the spell checks arrived.
    you know why?
    if there is something which requires constant maintenance to operate, like language. lets just say, it _DIES_ off without said maintenance.
    for this reason, we can bear the unfortunate victims of these crimes, primarily on natives, as foreigners are starting to be more adequate at speaking languages than the ones born with them. why? its all thanks to the regulations, of spell checks, which shrink down languages from rich to poor. every year that passes by, english loses significant amout of words from its vocabulry in the day to day use.

    and you have no concept of others might be able to know what is obvious to others, which is exactly what i do, not from my own perspective.. but that of others. for example, if i write something wrong, ho w i know its obvious? well like that ho w back there, i mistakenly pressed space, which is quite obvious. or if its off key, liek ahve, then clearly fingers have just gone off pace, or off key like it was supposed to be, thw, youd see quickly how doubly v is right next to e and logically means the, but this step is unencessary. why? if i say thw sun is bright hot, and we orbit this nearest star. youd have to NOT know what the sun is, youd have to have no concept of star, no concept of space, to not know what word was before it, cause its in the context. context, is how languages work. context, remember that. nothing else matters, only context dopes. in grammatics, you could say its correct to say just one word randomly, like lets pop something random here. but if i popped one random word without context it relates to, it means nothing. nothing.
    for example, see how thw is so out of context when i wrote it first time, and how it bśuddenly became an obvious write wrong when i gave it a context.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    you see, when i write in the oh so proper, wikipedia mode, majority understand me but i dont enjoy the limitations on self expressivity.
    then theres this 5% who have too small vocabulary to understand it.
    when i am not in such mode, theres this 5% who only understand wikipedian.
    and, the wikipedians wont understand anything else as mentioned, neither will the another 5% mentioned understand wikipedian.

    thus i have to dissatisfy one of the 5%, including myself were i to choose wikipedian.

    normally i could speak just fine by choosing wikipedian, cause majority of my expressivity is anyways done by body language/voice acting, but same applies not on writing. if i dont enjoy writing, then whats the point even?

    lets say there is an information flow rate, lets say 100 is avarage.
    it can be cut into slices, 75% expressivity by body language, 15% by voice quality and 10% by what you say. thats my estimation for myself, but when you go textual, then there is this excess of 90% of what i wish to communicate to you left unheard, unless i attempt to bring it all across through writing, which leads to the paradox of me writing slower than i get new ideas, which equals in over five thousand word length messages. and people complain when i write too long.
    I totally understand you here.

    Feelings and thoughts can be difficult to communicate with 100% accuracy, even more difficult to translate to an audience, and even more difficult when you must rely on words alone. People run into this a lot--you're not alone.

    If your point is to write in order to communicate, you must understand that others will have to put some work into understanding you and so you must meet them part of the way. If you're writing solely because you like to write and don't care about being understood, then there's nothing stopping you from delivering your messages in a way that you see fit. The former is textbook; the latter is poetry.

    You will have to make some sacrifices if you choose to communicate to an audience, as frustrating and limiting as that seems.

    There's hope. Some posters, such as @wildcat and @Victor, are known for their.. idiosyncratic ways of delivering their messages. Their writing styles are almost poetic; they have creative ways to express themselves. It takes some effort to digest posts such as those, and it's inevitable that some wouldn't want to put in that effort--but they come close to capturing the sheer essence of their thoughts due to their writing style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    there are several articles documenting the downfall of english, as it has been at it ever since the spell checks arrived.
    Language has been in constant modification since its birth, with the advent of new technologies and skills, with borrowing words from different languages, with the increased desire and need to bridge communication gaps globally, and so on. Some refer to these modifications as "downfalls"--but, really, they're just natural evolution of language.

    Spellcheck isn't the only "enemy" of language; we've had such "enemies" throughout history. The printing press allowed us to mass-produce books and stories--so we "lost" the art of passing stories on orally from generation to generation. We outsource our mental capacities when these enemies arrive--with the printing press, we outsourced our memory to books; with spellcheck, we outsource our ability to spell with accuracy.

    By my estimation, these "enemies" have just provided us more options through which we can communicate our messages--they allow us to concentrate on thinking and feeling internally, to truly refine our messages internally, so that they can more effectively be delivered.

    At least, now we have phones, voice chats, and YouTube--we no longer have to rely on words alone to capture our essence.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I totally understand you here.

    Feelings and thoughts can be difficult to communicate with 100% accuracy, even more difficult to translate to an audience, and even more difficult when you must rely on words alone. People run into this a lot--you're not alone.

    If your point is to write in order to communicate, you must understand that others will have to put some work into understanding you and so you must meet them part of the way. If you're writing solely because you like to write and don't care about being understood, then there's nothing stopping you from delivering your messages in a way that you see fit. The former is textbook; the latter is poetry.

    You will have to make some sacrifices if you choose to communicate to an audience, as frustrating and limiting as that seems.

    There's hope. Some posters, such as @wildcat and @Victor, are known for their.. idiosyncratic ways of delivering their messages. Their writing styles are almost poetic; they have creative ways to express themselves. It takes some effort to digest posts such as those, and it's inevitable that some wouldn't want to put in that effort--but they come close to capturing the sheer essence of their thoughts due to their writing style.


    Language has been in constant modification since its birth, with the advent of new technologies and skills, with borrowing words from different languages, with the increased desire and need to bridge communication gaps globally, and so on. Some refer to these modifications as "downfalls"--but, really, they're just natural evolution of language.

    Spellcheck isn't the only "enemy" of language; we've had such "enemies" throughout history. The printing press allowed us to mass-produce books and stories--so we "lost" the art of passing stories on orally from generation to generation. We outsource our mental capacities when these enemies arrive--with the printing press, we outsourced our memory to books; with spellcheck, we outsource our ability to spell with accuracy.

    By my estimation, these "enemies" have just provided us more options through which we can communicate our messages--they allow us to concentrate on thinking and feeling internally, to truly refine our messages internally, so that they can more effectively be delivered.

    At least, now we have phones, voice chats, and YouTube--we no longer have to rely on words alone to capture our essence.
    indeed, but its the dangerous blind belief of one way being correct which is slowing said development of language. every now and then, we all come across these people who preach their divine spell check on everyone they meet.. you know, its annoying, but at least people are finally starting to get the idea theres more than one correct way.
    i know im already dropping behind the technological development, as ridiculous as that might sound for someone of my age. lol
    when i go to internet, if i want to communicate, i go to forums, although real time interactive options have long arrived, and taken the standard way of textual communication on internet by now.

    english seems to be on verge of dividing into two paths, those who make it simpler, standardize everything, remove words, use dictionaries and rules years behind the actual innovation, the pioneers of english development. london is one good example of cities with high pioneer percentages, with their constantly developing accent.
    these standardizers are what we know as american english, simple english and oxford english. each preaching their dictionaries as divine, trying to take over the world, with an aggression comparable to religions.
    and then there are the real english speakers, who speak without following some divine order of dictionary, but rather follow what the language for what it actually is than what they wish it was.

    and as i deepen my knowledge on mbti, i can better integrate it into day to dy use, for example, ive been able to recognize peoples mbtis on real time chatting places from their writing alone, and this allows me to know better what they want from the chats which then creates possibility for more dynamic chats. which is, always my primary goal, for it is the only path to mutual ground, which then can be elevated together into reaching an euphoria.

    also drawing style they use and what they draw reveals alot, this allows targeted friendship so as to meet more the kind whom you like in the net. for example, i could go into random chat rooms and be disappointed with the people, or i could observe to find other N's or sf's to spend quality time with. (those are generally my preferences.)
    for example why this is necessary: i might not know it, but every time i spent with someone who has expectations of me, even if unheard and unsaid, even if just real time chatting with someone i just met, they unconsciously affect me. then i might afterwards wonder why i couldnt be myself, why i werent able to enjoy it. this also happens the other way, as i met someone very nfp on the net, i felt a feeling connection between myself and that what i wrote. as normally, that what i write just simply comes out by itself without feelings nor me being of any use in the process.

    also what im trying to do by practicing mindfulness, other than higher self awareness, is to understand this essence in myself and how it relates to my abilities outside my head. two different abilities, strengthenin the bridges by understanding both will allow for more fluent flow generally, although i find this a long task i will never complete. and i find it interesting what all you can do by analyzing and categorizing the essence of creativity, to see the deeper essence which als art is constructed of. for example how i view drawing: body + physical extension of it = limits, observe your limits but never expect them final, accept flaws as part of your art, and try mutate them into something beautiful. the art drawn: emotion one, two, and how many you ever do, the relations of said emotions through the communication of context in the art, and use of events in the art, give a flexible view on the limitations, so then.. its quite clear, what you can create, art, in its most naked form is very limited, but heres the part which changes it all: what you know, every concept you know which is visual, characters, universes, events(like shooting someone, mating, etc.) possible in the reality, then multiply that with imagination where you can combine all these with your creativity to assemble new art.

    by simplifying art, you actually take the art from happening in your hands, into happening in your brains, thus what you do by hands is merely relaying the primary process of art. and i find it quite fascinating, cause now creativity comes much more controlled to me, and the possiblities are higher as i understand the limitations, thus i can do the tactic of focusing on maximum performance possible by my human brains on the concept of art.

    lets say arts complexity could be measured, before unveiling avarage is 100.
    after veiling illusions of beauty, you see your true potential, easily multiplying what you had before.
    (this transformed me from drawing beautiful "abstract" but not really abstract, as there was always deeper meaning in there, to finishing my drawings hundreds of times quicker and my style, changed into emotion, humour and creativity focus. while with my "abstract" the focus was in beauty and deeper meanings, but now i bring the meaning right onto their eyes for everyone to understand.)

    same thing can be done to communication, you have tools, and you have the processor, unveil your capabilities to better understand how you can use the capabilities by breaking it down into elements.
    and as i mentioned, i had once succeeded on perfect bridge between feelings and textual communication. back on that moment, wrote pretty much with intentional grammatic errors here and there as well as leaving unintentional ones without correction, and adding alot of completely cutomized on the spot invented interjections, nh.. like.. that nh right there and the dots after word like, although those arent invented on the spot, but rather part of my interjection gallery. human consciousness is just so focused, kind of impossible to remember all the precious findings and incorporate them into daily usage. and by that i mean, these books have thousands of pages, yet you can choose to view one page of coding at once, only.
    i suppose, its the use of original interjections which is as close as i can come up on how to express feelings in text with authenticity. but that, requires slow pace enough to invent new interjections on the go instead of using your already existing vocabulary, as these very specified interjections anyways are too numerous to be remembered, except some few cases where they can be used for more than specific situations.

    thus i find the problem is in lacking the tools to express feelings, and finding the balance between thought expression and.. feelings, is hard, as thoughts always take over the language expression for getting used to that and feelings normally being purely by expressions. maybe i just have to study whats the input and output to combine them.. easy to say, hard to do. frankly, i dont really withold from expressing either of them, as long as tools available allow for expressing both simultaneously. when not, one will take over another. thus swapping from mode to mode, depending on whom im with and on my physical condition, like now i have minor head throbbing from not sleeping with high quality enough.

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