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  1. #211
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm willing to entertain the idea that there are other forms of male bonding that should be explored in our culture, but I'll never agree that we should do away with treasured traditions just to appease your more delicate sensibilities.
    Even setting aside the issue of diet altogether, this idea of treasured traditions could well be the greatest obstacle to reason because it is self-justifying. It is striking what force and persistence this idea has that "we've always done it this way", or "this is our identity". It makes something hands off for no other reason than its familiarity. Many examples of destructive cycles can be cited to demonstrate this line of thinking. There can be value in rejecting any "treasured tradition" that doesn't stand up to reason because the alternative is the inability to ever revise any system.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #212
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Even setting aside the issue of diet altogether, this idea of treasured traditions could well be the greatest obstacle to reason because it is self-justifying. It is striking what force and persistence this idea has that "we've always done it this way", or "this is our identity". It makes something hands off for no other reason than its familiarity. Many examples of destructive cycles can be cited to demonstrate this line of thinking. There can be value in rejecting any "treasured tradition" that doesn't stand up to reason because the alternative is the inability to ever revise any system.
    There is no reason on either side of the debate. Those who favor tradition do so because they feel it's right; those who favor animal rights also do so because they feel it's right.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #213
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    There is no reason on either side of the debate. Those who favor tradition do so because they feel it's right; those who favor animal rights also do so because they feel it's right.
    As long as the premise is demonstrating nutrition and health for human beings and sustainability for the planet, then of course reason can be applied to achieve these objectives. Reason can be applied because research can be done and outcomes measured. Conclusions can be verified outside of individual perceptions. Those are the points I am debating, but I suppose if other people dismiss that and focus just on preference of flavors and subjective desires, then the discussion is meaningless and wasteful of time and effort.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #214
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    As long as the premise is demonstrating nutrition and health for human beings and sustainability for the planet, then of course reason can be applied to achieve these objectives. Those are the points I am debating, but I suppose if other people dismiss that and focus just on preference of flavors and subjective desires, then the discussion is meaningless and wasteful of time and effort.
    As a devil's advocate I have given equally valid reasons to support hunting. Also in this thread are reasons to support factory farms.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #215
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Rationalizations are not what I mean by reason anyway. Those are just reasons to support feelings.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Also, overpopulation is a big factor in lots of species of animals due to humanities artificial interference with the ecosystem.
    How is there overpopulation of animals? if anything we are killing off many animals and species by polluting the ocean, destroying forests etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    I mean, let's be rational here. It's within most of our interests to act within our own self-interests; If you were isolated from modern society and starving, chances are you'd choose between your life in comparison to a smaller animals life if your pending survival was contingent upon whether or not you decided to harvest upon its resources. Do you believe any other animal in the wild would exercise the same restraint if it was desperate and saw you as an opportunity for a meal? We're animals, complex ones, but still bound to the laws of nature.
    I don't think you read my last 10 posts stating that it would still be ok and moral in a state of survival to eat meat. First world societies do not suffer from a lack of food therefore because of this there is no reason to be killing animals for food. We are not bound by laws of nature to eat meat, since we can survive without it nothing is really stopping us other than our own choices. The word "laws of nature" is so vague it can be applied to anything really once we evolove into a higher forms of understanding and consciousness laws of nature change.

  7. #217
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    I don't think you read my last 10 posts stating that it would still be ok and moral in a state of survival to eat meat. First world societies do not suffer from a lack of food therefore because of this there is no reason to be killing animals for food. We are not bound by laws of nature to eat meat, since we can survive without it nothing is really stopping us other than our own choices. The word "laws of nature" is so vague it can be applied to anything really once we evolove into a higher forms of understanding and consciousness laws of nature change.
    Now you're adding in stipulations and exceptions that make the basis your rationalization seem arbitrary. Who's the authority on when it isn't wrong or right to eat something based on circumstance? Also, just because we don't need to per-say, what makes it wrong to do so at that point? Furthermore, how do or would be benefit by not killing animals for their meat?
    "I'm just here so I won't get fined."

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Now you're adding in stipulations and exceptions that make the basis your rationalization seem arbitrary.
    Nope it's pretty clear reasoning.

  9. #219
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    As a devil's advocate I have given equally valid reasons to support hunting. Also in this thread are reasons to support factory farms.
    So are you claiming to use reason or not? You just said there is no reason on either side of the debate. I'm glad you have taken this turn because we sure as hell better be able to apply reason to an issue that effects every single human being on the planet and the future of the environment.

    Data to demonstrate that meat consumption aids in nutrition and in the sustainability of the environment is useful for discussion and reason can then be applied. All valid information is necessary to review in order to work towards comprehending the entire issue and not just the fragments that support one side. I put forward some research in favor of the production of vegetation over meat, but no one challenged it or gave any reason the research was problematic. Two sides presenting research or statistics doesn't result in a "tie" like in a game, but rather conflicting data has to be compared to determine accuracy and to understand which approach is more valid.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stigmata View Post
    Now you're adding in stipulations and exceptions that make the basis your rationalization seem arbitrary. Who's the authority on when it isn't wrong or right to eat something based on circumstance? Also, just because we don't need to per-say, what makes it wrong to do so at that point? Furthermore, how do or would be benefit by not killing animals for their meat?
    So according to your reasoning ethics and morals have no exceptions how does that make sense?. There is no complete black and white morals and ethics always change with time.

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