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  1. #171
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    I don't really hate any character's off the top of my head, but looking through IMDB top 250 list, I generally hate one-dimensional villains or characters that have little or no sense of what is 'decent'.

    So looking through the list, these characters came to mind

    loki - Avengers
    Adrian - Watchmen
    Lady Kaede - Ran
    Griffith - Berserk
    Dr. Frederick Chilton - Silence of the Lambs
    Stansfield - Leon: the professional
    Frank Costello - The Departed
    Commodus - Gladiator
    Wild Bill - Green Mile
    Sgt. Barnes - Platoon

  2. #172
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Adrian - Watchmen
    Do you regard him as such a one-dimensional villain without a sense of decency?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Lady Kaede - Ran
    Ah, yes, the original bitch.

  3. #173
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I always wonder at those who dislike Adrian; I tend to assume they have a lack of moral imagination.

    For me, personally, Skyler White would take up all 10 slots on my character hate list.



  4. #174
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I always wonder at those who dislike Adrian; I tend to assume they have a lack of moral imagination.

    For me, personally, Skyler White would take up all 10 slots on my character hate list.
    Please be kind enough to clarify as to how you find his actions morally imaginative. If you do take your time to reply please be kind enough to let us know how killing all those millions of people is justifiable for peace achieved which probably wouldn't last for that long anyway.

    Excuse my grammar please dear INTP.

    No I don't find him as a one dimensional villain. Infact I don't find him as a villain at all. What irks me about him is his overconfidence in his schemes, not imagining the possibility of his schemes (after being committed) being revealed (secrets are meant to be revealed sooner or later) and on a quite shallow level the fact that he is the reason the worlds coolest vigilante Rorschach died.

    not imagining the possibility of his schemes (after being committed) being revealed (secrets are meant to be revealed sooner or later)
    This part means he lacked foresight.

    No he is not in my top ten list.

  5. #175
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Please be kind enough to clarify as to how you find his actions morally imaginative. If you do take your time to reply please be kind enough to let us know how killing all those millions of people is justifiable for peace achieved which probably wouldn't last for that long anyway.

    Excuse my grammar please dear INTP.

    No I don't find him as a one dimensional villain. Infact I don't find him as a villain at all. What irks me about him is his overconfidence in his schemes, not imagining the possibility of his schemes (after being committed) being revealed (secrets are meant to be revealed sooner or later) and on a quite shallow level the fact that he is the reason the worlds coolest vigilante Rorschach died.


    No he is not in my top ten list.
    I implied that it takes one with a bit of moral imagination to not find Adrian completely reprehensible. The concept of “the ends justify the means” has been around for quite some time, but most people don’t give those who murder millions any second thought. Adrian, if anything, tries to at least make you consider morality on a completely different scale than one usually does.

    Won’t last for some time? I think you underestimate the fear and obedience the existence of a wrathful superbeing can command; the Abrahamic faiths being exhibit A-infinity of how well that can work for you.

    Also, Rorschach is the reason Rorschach died.



  6. #176
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Also, Rorschach is the reason Rorschach died.
    Indeed. Rorschach is one of those characters who tends to be heavily glamorized as a badass, but when I look at him I violent, dangerous and likely insane man operating off an extreme, inflexible worldview. He's totally destructive. It's one thing for that to be the hero in a dumb popcorn flick, but in Watchmen, where there's a lot of examining and dissecting different morality systems, I can't see how you'd find Rorschach's functional, ideal or in any meaningful way correct (though I understand it's appeal to an understandable desire for strong black and white (see what they did there) morals and a sort of id-based desire for strong, stern and immediate punishment that all people do have to some degree).

    I don't hate the character Rorschach: he's interesting and fun to read. But I absolutely hate the ideology he represents.

    Well, sometimes I do really just hate him. Which makes sense, since he's extremist, inflexible, homophobic, prude-ish, possibly misogynist, violent, paranoid, nihilistic, rude, inconsiderate, more interested in punishing and hurting people than saving them, incredibly judgmental, sanctimonious, hypocritical, borderline sociopathic and prejudiced.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  7. #177
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Indeed. Rorschach is one of those characters who tends to be heavily glamorized as a badass, but when I look at him I violent, dangerous and likely insane man operating off an extreme, inflexible worldview. He's totally destructive. It's one thing for that to be the hero in a dumb popcorn flick, but in Watchmen, where there's a lot of examining and dissecting different morality systems, I can't see how you'd find Rorschach's functional, ideal or in any meaningful way correct (though I understand it's appeal to an understandable desire for strong black and white (see what they did there) morals and a sort of id-based desire for strong, stern and immediate punishment that all people do have to some degree).

    I don't hate the character Rorschach: he's interesting and fun to read. But I absolutely hate the ideology he represents.
    For me, I’ve always seen Rorschach in a tragic and sympathetic light. I can definitely see why he, and by extension his worldview, are attractive as his absolutism is a response, a rejection, of the relativism and chaos displayed by the others main characters and to be honest I think a lot of people are far more comfortable in a black and white moral world, where justice is visceral, immediate, and incorruptible. [I think you were getting to this, and sort of answered your own question there ]



  8. #178
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Do you regard him as such a one-dimensional villain without a sense of decency?
    Not one-dimensional, but his decency is highly questionable to me.

    He's willing to do anything to people as long as he thinks the ends justifies the means; he confuses his own goals with ideas of what is necessary and best. He's willing to lie to people in the belief that humanity can't trust themselves, that they should be controlled by someone who can control them well, rather than shown how to trust themselves and make their own choices; but he never seems to consider whether or not he can trust himself.

    I think he mistakenly creates the image of humanity that he sees, because he believes it; and because of this, he projects his disgust for humanity and uses it to support his ego. And that's his moral weakness. He is his own worst enemy - unable to introspect and question his own motivations/beliefs. He's dangerously motivated and that makes him indecent towards others, an indecency he will justify, because that is part of his goal(s).

  9. #179
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Not one-dimensional, but his decency is highly questionable to me.

    He's willing to do anything to people as long as he thinks the ends justifies the means; he confuses his own goals with ideas of what is necessary and best. He's willing to lie to people in the belief that humanity can't trust themselves, that they should be controlled by someone who can control them well, rather than shown how to trust themselves and make their own choices; but he never seems to consider whether or not he can trust himself.

    I think he mistakenly creates the image of humanity that he sees, because he believes it; and because of this, he projects his disgust for humanity and uses it to support his ego. And that's his moral weakness. He is his own worst enemy - unable to introspect and question his own motivations/beliefs. He's dangerously motivated and that makes him indecent towards others, an indecency he will justify, because that is part of his goal(s).
    Would you excuse his doings if his assumptions and calculations were correct so that in the end his goals would be achieved?

  10. #180
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    The french father in Frankenstein

    The prophet in thus spake zarathustra

    Jay Gatsby in The Great Gatsby

    Claude Frollo in the hunchback of notre dame

    The priest in the scarlet letter
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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