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  1. #141
    Senior Member ICUP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I would type myself ISTP then. 6w5, just like you. At the moment, I have no problems with that. I don't think I need to convince anyone, but it's kind of interesting to talk about. I don't even know why some people get certain ideas that were even more off than this (for example, Elfboy thought I was a 9).
    You've already convicted yourself. I'm ISTP 6w5, remember?
    Anyways, I'll forgive you.
    Actually, I have no idea what your type is, to be truthful. I never really considered it. Most people here I haven't.....
    ISTP 6w5 sx/sp
    6-8-4/6-9-4 Tritype

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm not sure I'm hipsterish? Scraggly.. Probably. I don't know.
    The #1 rule of being hipsterish: if you're not sure you're not hipsterish, you're hipsterish.

    j/k... sorta

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm not here to talk about myself too much (it is Wolfy's thread, after all)...
    Yeah, sorry Wolfy if this seems a bit off topic.

    It's still a male ISFP-ISTP issue, though, so I figure it might be relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    ...but you're talking to someone who's done drive-bys (not regularly though!), and was probably considered a bit notorious at one point. Some people were happy to see me finally get my ass kicked. Someone who even met with situations that would spark the sympathy of most (say, having a woman overdose in your vicinity, and being asked to rush her to hospital) would get pissed off at having to be even bothered with someone's problems. A lot of good acts and moments of empathy I had were kinda brudgingly done. This is not Fi. Every bit of good conviction and laid backness I have today is because of living and learning, a lot of effort.. consciously embracing my heart, learning from consequences. It goes beyond any bullshit about type.
    I don't doubt that last sentence.

    But I do think everything you said is perfectly in line with what Jung said about Fi dom's in 'Psychological Types'.

    I think his portrait is almost a bit excessive, but damn, he makes them sound like cold, fucking assholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung, 'Psychological Types'
    3. Feeling

    Introverted feeling is determined principally by the subjective factor. This means that the feeling-judgment differs quite as essentially from extraverted feeling as does the introversion of thinking from extraversion. It is unquestionably difficult to give an intellectual presentation of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate [p. 490] description of it, although the peculiar character of this kind of feeling simply stands out as soon as one becomes aware of it at all. Since it is primarily controlled by subjective preconditions, and is only secondarily concerned with the object, this feeling appears much less upon the surface and is, as a rule, misunderstood. It is a feeling which apparently depreciates the object; hence it usually becomes noticeable in its negative manifestations. The existence of a positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly, as it were. Its aim is not so much to accommodate to the objective fact as to stand above it, since its whole unconscious effort is to give reality to the underlying images. It is, as it were, continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but of which it has had a sort of previous vision. From objects that can never fit in with its aim it seems to glide unheedingly away. It strives after an inner intensity, to which at the most, objects contribute only an accessory stimulus. The depths of this feeling can only be divined -- they can never be clearly comprehended. It makes men silent and difficult of access; with the sensitiveness of the mimosa, it shrinks from the brutality of the object, in order to expand into the depths of the subject. It puts forward negative feeling-judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference, as a measure of self-defence.

    Primordial images are, of course, just as much idea as feeling. Thus, basic ideas such as God, freedom, immortality are just as much feeling-values as they are significant as ideas. Everything, therefore, that has been said of the introverted thinking refers equally to introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought. But the fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic capacity before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately [p. 491] presented or communicated to the outer world. Whereas subjective thinking, on account of its unrelatedness, finds great difficulty in arousing an adequate understanding, the same, though in perhaps even higher degree, holds good for subjective feeling. In order to communicate with others it has to find an external form which is not only fitted to absorb the subjective feeling in a satisfying expression, but which must also convey it to one's fellowman in such a way that a parallel process takes place in him. Thanks to the relatively great internal (as well as external) similarity of the human being, this effect can actually be achieved, although a form acceptable to feeling is extremely difficult to find, so long as it is still mainly orientated by the fathomless store of primordial images. But, when it becomes falsified by an egocentric attitude, it at once grows unsympathetic, since then its major concern is still with the ego. Such a case never fails to create an impression of sentimental self-love, with its constant effort to arouse interest and even morbid self-admiration just as the subjectified consciousness of the introverted thinker, striving after an abstraction of abstractions, only attains a supreme intensity of a thought-process in itself quite empty, so the intensification of egocentric feeling only leads to a contentless passionateness, which merely feels itself. This is the mystical, ecstatic stage, which prepares the way over into the extraverted functions repressed by feeling, just as introverted thinking is pitted against a primitive feeling, to which objects attach themselves with magical force, so introverted feeling is counterbalanced by a primitive thinking, whose concretism and slavery to facts passes all bounds. Continually emancipating itself from the relation to the object, this feeling creates a freedom, both of action and of conscience, that is only answerable to the subject, and that may even renounce all traditional values. But so much the more [p. 492] does unconscious thinking fall a victim to the power of objective facts.

    4. The Introverted Feeling Type

    It is principally among women that I have found the priority of introverted feeling. The proverb 'Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and not infrequently their temperament is melancholic. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. Since they submit the control of their lives to their subjectively orientated feeling, their true motives generally remain concealed. Their outward demeanour is harmonious and inconspicuous; they reveal a delightful repose, a sympathetic parallelism, which has no desire to affect others, either to impress, influence, or change them in any way. Should this outer side be somewhat emphasized, a suspicion of neglectfulness and coldness may easily obtrude itself, which not seldom increases to a real indifference for the comfort and well-being of others. One distinctly feels the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, such an event only occurs when the object has in some way too strong an effect. The harmonious feeling atmosphere rules only so long as the object moves upon its own way with a moderate feeling intensity, and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to accompany the real emotions of the object, which tend to be damped and rebuffed, or to put it more aptly, are 'cooled off' by a negative feeling-judgment. Although one may find a constant readiness for a peaceful and harmonious companionship, the unfamiliar object is shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responding warmth, but is met by a manner of apparent indifference or repelling coldness. [p. 493]

    One may even be made to feel the superfluousness of one's own existence. In the presence of something that might carry one away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent neutrality, tempered with an occasional trace of superiority and criticism that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive object. But a stormy emotion will be brusquely rejected with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the subject from the side of the unconscious, i.e. unless, through the animation of some primordial image, feeling is, as it were, taken captive. In which event such a woman simply feels a momentary laming, invariably producing, in due course, a still more violent resistance, which reaches the object in his most vulnerable spot. The relation to the object is, as far as possible, kept in a secure and tranquil middle state of feeling, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely proscribed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly and, when once aware of it at all, the object has a permanent sense of his undervaluation. Such, however, is not always the case, since very often the deficit remains unconscious; whereupon the unconscious feeling-claims gradually produce symptoms which compel a more serious attention.

    A superficial judgment might well be betrayed, by a rather cold and reserved demeanour, into denying all feeling to this type. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, her feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop into the depth. Whereas, for instance, an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in both word and deed at the right place, thus quickly ridding itself of its impression, an intensive sympathy, because shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that embraces the misery of a world and is simply benumbed. It may possibly make an extravagant irruption, leading to some staggering act of an almost heroic character, to which, however, neither the object nor [p. 494] the subject can find a right relation. To the outer world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this sympathy looks like coldness, for it does nothing visibly, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.

    Such misunderstanding is a characteristic occurrence in the life of this type, and is commonly registered as a most weighty argument against any deeper feeling relation with the object. But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type. It may possibly express its aim and content in a concealed religiosity anxiously shielded, from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms equally safeguarded from surprise; not without a secret ambition to bring about some superiority over the object by such means. Women often express much of it in their children, letting their passionateness flow secretly into them.

    Although in the normal type, the tendency, above alluded to, to overpower or coerce the object once openly and visibly with the thing secretly felt, rarely plays a disturbing role, and never leads to a serious attempt in this direction, some trace of it, none the less, leaks through into the personal effect upon the object, in the form of a domineering influence often difficult to define. It is sensed as a sort of stifling or oppressive feeling which holds the immediate circle under a spell. It gives a woman of this type a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious. This power is derived from the deeply felt, unconscious images; consciousness, however, readily refers it to the ego, whereupon the influence becomes debased into personal tyranny. But, wherever the unconscious subject is identified with the ego, the mysterious power of the intensive feeling is also transformed into banal and arrogant ambition, vanity, and [p. 495] petty tyranny. This produces a type of woman most regrettably distinguished by her unscrupulous ambition and mischievous cruelty. But this change in the picture leads also to neurosis.

    So long as the ego feels itself housed, as it were, beneath the heights of the unconscious subject, and feeling reveals something higher and mightier than the ego, the type is normal. The unconscious thinking is certainly archaic, yet its reductions may prove extremely helpful in compensating the occasional inclinations to exalt the ego into the subject. But, whenever this does take place by dint of complete suppression of the unconscious reductive thinking-products, the unconscious thinking goes over into opposition and becomes projected into objects. Whereupon the now egocentric subject comes to feel the power and importance of the depreciated object. Consciousness begins to feel 'what others think'. Naturally, others are thinking, all sorts of baseness, scheming evil, and contriving all sorts of plots, secret intrigues, etc. To prevent this, the subject must also begin to carry out preventive intrigues, to suspect and sound others, to make subtle combinations. Assailed by rumours, he must make convulsive efforts to convert, if possible, a threatened inferiority into a superiority. Innumerable secret rivalries develop, and in these embittered struggles not only will no base or evil means be disdained, but even virtues will be misused and tampered with in order to play the trump card. Such a development must lead to exhaustion. The form of neurosis is neurasthenic rather than hysterical; in the case of women we often find severe collateral physical states, as for instance anæmia and its sequelæ.
    I swear, I posted this all before I saw your quote below, but doesn't the bolded sound more-or-less like:

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I would definitely like to be more of a nice person myself. It just takes effort. Effort that I forget sometimes.
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Anyways, thanks for the opinions.
    Well, I think you're the only person whose type I've ever really harped on about much, so...


  3. #143
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    But I do think everything you said is perfectly in line with what Jung said about Fi dom's in 'Psychological Types'.
    Funnily, I identify more with Jung's IPs (Si/Ni doms). But they're nothing like ISJs in MBTI. You sent me a rep earlier about Socionics being botched, but I think it's MBTI. Augusta and Myers both developed their systems at the same time, and in isolation - but it was Myers who specifically and admittedly departed from Jung. She says herself to not associate her descriptions of Fi doms with Jung's, in the introduction of Gifts Differing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    you're talking to someone who's done drive-bys (not regularly though!)
    Super Soaker water guns don't count, KDude.


  5. #145
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
    Super Soaker water guns don't count, KDude.

    Lets go play Golgo 13... sniper level.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Funnily, I identify more with Jung's IPs (Si/Ni doms).
    Well, this would dovetail well with another of my beliefs: that SFPs are the worst at recognizing their own type.



    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    But they're nothing like ISJs in MBTI.
    Well, they shouldn't be...

    They should be like MBTI IJs...

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    You sent me a rep earlier about Socionics being botched, but I think it's MBTI. Augusta and Myers both developed their systems at the same time, and in isolation...
    I thought, from what I'd read, that Augusta developed Socionics after MBTI...?

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    ...but it was Myers who specifically and admittedly departed from Jung. She says herself to not associate her descriptions of Fi doms with Jung's, in the introduction of Gifts Differing.
    Yeah, well, I look at them all as shining lights on the truth from their own particular vantage point.

    Frankly, while I find Jung's description of Fi dom's interesting, it seems to be drawing pretty heavily on his subjective reaction to them.

    Wasn't Myers an INFP? Maybe, from her perspective, Jung didn't exactly do a great job revealing the entirety of Fi for what it is...

    Speaking from my own perspective: I find his Ni-dom description interesting an revealing, but rather crude as well.

    We have to remember: he was breaking ground with this stuff; his descriptions shouldn't be seen as perfect.

    I mean, from what I've been able to gather, his entire grasp of typology seemed rather crude...

    And I'm not saying this to take anything away from Jung -- the guy was a genius.

    But just cuz you're the first person to explore an area, doesn't mean you know that area better than everyone who comes after you...

  7. #147
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, they shouldn't be...

    They should be like MBTI IJs...
    Just so I don't look like I'm isolated in all of this: Look at how many MBTI ISTPs and ISFPs are identifying as Si doms in Socionics.




    There's something fishy there. 79 ISTPs identify with a Si dom type, and only 9 ISTJs. 76 ISFPs, and only 5 ISFJs.

    Jungian and Socionics Fi and Ti are described as being kind of static judging types, and Si/Ni dominants the dynamic types.

    But in MBTI, it's changed, because of what Myers did. She said that introverted judging was kind of cloistered, and they were more noticable from the Perceiving function (Ne/Se). In a sense, she redefined them as the Dynamic types because of this - something that was originally reserved for dominant Extroverted and Introverted Perceivers. Socionics keeps the original definition in tact and follows Jung.

    Why I think so many of those IFPs and ITPs are mixed up in that chart above is because they are following their correct Temperment. And they probably were never true Fi and Ti doms, in the strict Jungian sense.

  8. #148
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    I've included that table (or one almost exactly like it) in a post of mine about Socionics before.

    Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of those people just called themselves the same type in both systems cuz they don't know there's a difference.

    "I'm an MBTI ISFP, ok, then I'm a Socionics ISFP."

    Looking at that table again just makes me that much more certain I think Socionics should be thrown out.

    INTJs as ENTJs or ESTPs?

    WTF?

    Just... useless data...

    I practically feel like what that five character was saying about bayesian filters vs... i dunno, whatever the other ones were...

    Socionics just seems like garbage that mucks things up unnecessarily...

    / derail

  9. #149
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Socionics just seems like garbage that mucks things up unnecessarily...
    That would be easier to think, wouldn't it?

    I've tried myself. It doesn't settle anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    That would be easier to think, wouldn't it?

    I've tried myself. It doesn't settle anything.
    Tried what?

    Throwing it out, or giving it a chance?

    I think throwing it out settles things pretty well.


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