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  1. #21
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    From what I've been reading just these last few minutes since seeing your thread - these kinds of dogs need attention nearly every two hours while awake. Otherwise they will "dig" ( tear stuff up if inside ) . Are you prepared to devote that kind of attention to your dog month after month, year after year ?

    I think getting a dog is a good decision for you - not sure if a herder is the best move unless you are prepared to make that dog your LIFE. What will it do while you are at work ?
    They don't need perpetual attention, they need something to do. However, in the city, attention is how they have something to do.

    I really don't think he fathoms just how much exercise an ACD needs. I also think checking out dogs at the Humane Society is a good idea, because you get a feel for their personality there and raising from a puppy isn't always going to be better.

    The best dog my family ever had was a mutt on death row, saved literally hours before she was to be put down... The worst is one they got as a puppy, and the second worst is a full-bred Collie they were given by a breeder.

  2. #22
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    They don't need perpetual attention, they need something to do. .
    I noted that on an earlier post - "since you will not be herding". ( Nor will Brendan be perpetually in a mood to play "fetch". ) Grrrr.

    Brendan - I guess you'll be Ok then, if you have this knowledgeable relative living with you, or coming 'round constantly.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  3. #23
    Senior Member HilbertSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Another thing that I'm wondering about is crate training. Part of me would like to have the dog sleep in my bed. Which makes the gender thing a bit more of an issue. Given my preference, how would a male from a breed which is known to be reticent around strangers take to another male staying a night in his sleeping place?
    This is one very good reason to buy from a breeder, especially one that has both parents (or at least the female) on hand. Tell the breeder that temperament is one of your considerations. Also, if you haven't already picked someone, start looking for a breeder early - some litters can be entirely sold before they're born, and in any case moving on it early can let you have a better chance of having multiple litters to choose from.

    Generally speaking, from my experience and depending on breed, females tend to be louder, if not actually more aggressive, than males. Sex based aggression is really confined within a species, though - I don't think that it's a good thing to have two unfixed male dogs in a house, especially if they aren't fairly laid back as individuals and as a breed. But the sex of visitors matters less to dogs than it does to people.

    Get the breeder's opinion on the litter and, if possible, on the individual pups. Also, assuming at least the dam is present, see how she acts around you, as a stranger, handling the pups. When I picked out my Stafford, the mom came over and licked my face when I was playing with the puppies, and the breeder pointed out that she was interested in breeding for temperament as well as conformation.
    JBS Haldane's Four Stages of Scientific Theories:

    1. This is worthless nonsense.
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    4. I always said so.

  4. #24
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    If you are concerned about being able to pay enough attention and the like, why not acquire a cat?

    Less hassle, obviously cooler, and don't need exercising. In fact, positively exercise resistant.

    -Geoff

  5. #25
    only bites when provoked
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    HilbertSpace: Puppies vary even with identical care, training, and parents. My sister got two puppies from the same litter (that's how my parents ended up with puppies - they almost never get them as puppies, but the ACD came as one by pure luck, and those two because my sister got them). The results were...startling. The one is afraid of her own shadow, standoffish, and we know for a fact she was never abused, while the other is affectionate, competitive, and nearly impossible to train. Offspring are somewhat random in personality, it seems to have a genetic factor and a socializing factor that isn't always readily apparent.

  6. #26
    Senior Member HilbertSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    HilbertSpace: Puppies vary even with identical care, training, and parents...
    Absolutely true.

    However, it is less likely to be a factor with known parents, and even less so when each parent is descended from a line of known parents.

    That's why herders herd, pointers point, retrievers retrieve, and pits pit. Breeding was originally very much focused on behavior, with breeders adding in a little of this and that like someone making a new recipe. Take a bulldog for tenacity and gameness, mix in a terrier for agility and activity, and you have the bull terrier.

    Like anything genetic, the resultant generation is going to be a mix from the parents, and there's going to be issues of dominant and recessive genes. There's also going to be new things cropping up now and then, ether because of a new combination or something along those lines. However, there's always more known factors involved when you know the parents, and their parents, and so on. That's the whole point of both breeds and pedigrees.
    JBS Haldane's Four Stages of Scientific Theories:

    1. This is worthless nonsense.
    2. This is an interesting, but perverse, point of view.
    3. This is true, but quite unimportant.
    4. I always said so.

  7. #27
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    99% of the time, there will be people present in the house. People willing to take it for walks, play with it, or just sit and pet it and groom it.
    Will there be 10 years from now?

    The dog I currently have was a family dog, the daughters moved out, the grandaughter (my gf) went to UBC. The dog ended up with her mother, alone for 10 hours of the day. Our dog will be less hyper than yours, but is still a collie.

    Now she's stuck in a little apartment, with us... we do what we can but I know it's not fair to her. Problem is, she rejects other homes. Collies are typically very difficult to move to a new 'pack'. It's already curtailed our ability to move to another place - most don't accept pets.

    I'm all for having a dog... or a pet period... but think long term, when you are working... when you don't have family around... Think about when you want vacations, etc.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Res Ipsa Loquitur View Post
    I also suggest crate training, at least until your puppy is housebroken. Crate training is also a great behavioral tool as well.
    Actually, I would suggest he crate train and never get rid of the crate. The point is to teach the dog that the crate is his/her den...kinda like teaching a child that their room is their personal space. We did this with my dog, and she goes in there when she wants everyone to leave her alone or when she's scared. She even goes so far as to keep her toys either in the crate or near it.

  9. #29
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I second that, Kyrielle. We had to break down the crate because there's just not enough room for it in the house, but it was great while we had it in the beginning. If we had space for it, I'm sure we'd just leave it up. Eli would often take a toy or treat into his crate to work on it, if the footstool position was unavailable.

    Another invaluable bit of advice we got as new dog owners was "Nothing In Life Is Free." If you do no other training regimen, NILIF is the baseline minimum of what you should do. Want something? Do something for me first. (I usually just make him sit.) Want to go outside? Sit. Want to come inside? Sit. Treat? Sit. Dinner? Sit. Water? Sit. Petting? Sit. It can feel mean, especially to an NF, but it's really the best way to establish yourself as your dog's god. And they are much more secure if they know you're god.

    I credit NILIF for the small amount of manageability I have managed to glean from my dog.

  10. #30
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    They don't need perpetual attention, they need something to do. However, in the city, attention is how they have something to do.
    This is exactly what I started wondering. I know Border Collies get wildly stressed as "dogs of leisure" because they've been bred as working dogs. They need jobs--regular employment. I have no idea if the same applies to ACDs.

    Of course, that could open career ops. Brendan, would you like to help herd geese from parks and golf courses?
    I really don't think he fathoms just how much exercise an ACD needs. I also think checking out dogs at the Humane Society is a good idea, because you get a feel for their personality there and raising from a puppy isn't always going to be better.
    Our local no-kill shelter will work with people to be sure they're prepared to deal with a dog. They may also be able to help pick a dog that's house-trained and has other good habits.

    An amazing number of pure bred dogs and cats can be found at shelters and pounds. No papers, of course, but that doesn't mean anything.
    The best dog my family ever had was a mutt on death row, saved literally hours before she was to be put down... The worst is one they got as a puppy, and the second worst is a full-bred Collie they were given by a breeder.
    I've heard great things about mutts.

    Nevertheless, we have a full-bred Chinese Crested powderpuff. We spent a year considering dogs and breeds before settling on the breed. Great dog, great parents, good and attentive breeder. Cresteds haven't been recognized as a breed long enough for the breeder-idiocies to settle in (like what's been done to collies and color-point Persian cats).
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
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