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  1. #21
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    I'm getting tired. This is the third time I repeat the same concept: to not believe in something (contradictory) does not mean believing in its opposite (contrary).

    And I don't have any engrained beliefs about Lennon, I already told you I'm not fond of the guy, so why would I waste time forming a positive image on him?

    I give up, I'm going to bed.
    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    He was anti-Republican in terms of its hawkish agenda in Vietnam. He was not anti-Republican out of a sense of supporting communistic ideals.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Besides the contrary views expressed in Tax Man
    John Lennon did not write Taxman, George Harrison did. Lennon helped with the lyrics, but it was Harrison's idea: "I threw in a few one-liners to help the song along, because that's what he asked for. He came to me because he couldn't go to Paul, because Paul wouldn't have helped him at that period. I didn't want to do it... I just sort of bit my tongue and said OK. It had been John and Paul for so long, he'd been left out because he hadn't been a songwriter up until then."

    Taking your view to its logical conclusion, everybody who hates the IRS (or whoever the taxman is in your country) is a left-wing radical. And consider that the Labour party's supertax rate on income in England at the time Harrison wrote Taxman was 95%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    there's also "you say you want a revolution" which always has seemed to me to be the very epitomy of arch-conservative thinking, I saw interviews, read interviews and listened to interviews about that and no matter the reform vs. revolution, pragmatism vs. militancy or whatever spin was put on it it seemed the same.
    I think you're bringing up one of the common misconceptions about "Revolution." Many don't seem to be aware of the lyric "you can count me OUT." No spin required. That's because his detractors didn't listen to the lyrics, only to the general tenor of the song which expresses an ironic theme: a very primal-sounding song, for its day, preaching non-violence.

    "Revolution" reveals Lennon's skepticism about hippie plots to violently overthrow the government. It is, I think, his only political song during the Beatles phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    So I would say that its true that Lennon doesnt epitomise the liberal right on hippy many believe him to be, either supporters on the left or detractors on the right.

    The anti-war, and particularly anti-vietnam war, aspect is something which is a curiousity to me, there's been a lot of popular forgetting and revisionism take place with respect to that war because I've read books from the time, left and right wing which strongly suggest a lot of popular and institutional anti-war sentiment, it was before the abolition of conscription, the average age of the conscripts fighting it was much younger than that which had fought the second world war.

    Even some of the hawkish elements within the army thought that the trauma, drug addiction issues, atrocities and eventual flood of the US with scarred, one way or another, veterans was destructive in the extreme but they seem to have honestly believed that something like Red Dawn or atomic death was eminant.
    I have to say, that emotional context is certainly important to consider.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #23
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    I'm getting tired. This is the third time I repeat the same concept: to not believe in something (contradictory) does not mean believing in its opposite (contrary).

    And I don't have any engrained beliefs about Lennon, I already told you I'm not fond of the guy, so why would I waste time forming a positive image on him?

    I give up, I'm going to bed.
    How about - an objective image of him?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #24
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    That is just ridiculous. You cannot have an objective image of anything. Especially not a person. You are really tiring me and I'm bored.
    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    How about - an objective image of him?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    That is just ridiculous. You cannot have an objective image of anything. Especially not a person. You are really tiring me and I'm bored.
    I just take the good with the bad, to me that's objective enough. I don't have any rose-colored glasses on. In fact, not too long ago I was talking with some friends of mine, irl, about Lennon's behavior at the Ashram, which didn't impress me one bit. He went there to meditate and learn, but mostly sat around in a room with his friends and yacked about stuff. He got mad at and judged various individuals who were at the Ashram. Then he wrote songs about them afterward, which is just opportunistic.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #26
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    OK, let me try to synthesize my points and find the original meaning of this thread as well.

    I'm not very sympathetic towards JL. I don't hate him. I don't love him. I personally think he was an idiot, but I don't care.

    You don't have to convince me of him being hypocritical. I think he was. I don't like the fact he was singing about peace and love and at the same time he was a violent husband (his first wife) and an absent father (julian).

    You wanted to know his opinions on religion. I said that the way I see it JL, more than believing in a specific ideology, was mostly cynical of anything. "I just believe in me....Yoko and me. That's reality".

    So now please stop jabbering about how I have a positive or negative image of him or what his views here or there were. Because that's not what I'm talking about at all.

    Is everything clear or do you still need an explanation? If you don't understand what I mean tell me and I'll try to explain. Just don't do this thing that you're doing which is to change the subject or put words in my mouth.


    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I just take the good with the bad, to me that's objective enough. I don't have any rose-colored glasses on. In fact, not too long ago I was talking with some friends of mine, irl, about Lennon's behavior at the Ashram, which didn't impress me one bit. He went there to meditate and learn, but mostly sat around in a room with his friends and yacked about stuff. He got mad at and judged various individuals who were at the Ashram. Then he wrote songs about them afterward, which is just opportunistic.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    OK, let me try to synthesize my points and find the original meaning of this thread as well.

    I'm not very sympathetic towards JL. I don't hate him. I don't love him. I personally think he was an idiot, but I don't care.

    You don't have to convince me of him being hypocritical. I think he was. I don't like the fact he was singing about peace and love and at the same time he was a violent husband (his first wife) and an absent father (julian).

    You wanted to know his opinions on religion. I said that the way I see it JL, more than believing in a specific ideology, was mostly cynical of anything. "I just believe in me....Yoko and me. That's reality".

    So now please stop jabbering about how I have a positive or negative image of him or what his views here or there were. Because that's not what I'm talking about at all.

    Is everything clear or do you still need an explanation? If you don't understand what I mean tell me and I'll try to explain. Just don't do this thing that you're doing which is to change the subject or put words in my mouth.
    At the moment, I just see a new opportunity to go

    *PLONK*
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #28
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Ahah I wanted to tell you something but then I looked at your picture and it took the words right out of my mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    At the moment, I just see a new opportunity to go

    *PLONK*

  9. #29
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The song is an anti-taxes/anti-taxation song, written and sang by some really rich guys. Its not a hippy attack on conventions to challenge taxation, unless I missed something, its the song which is most obviously the mirror opposite of the sentiments which liberals or commies relish in Imagine.
    This reminds me a lot of what people have to say about Literary criticism, how professors and such see more than the other ever intended. The Beatles were rich, but also they were working class kids and also a bunch of smart assess, which was probably more relevant at the time Taxman was recorded than having money. People are complicated and don't fit into the boxes that other people want them to for their own idealism.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    This reminds me a lot of what people have to say about Literary criticism, how professors and such see more than the other ever intended. The Beatles were rich, but also they were working class kids and also a bunch of smart assess, which was probably more relevant at the time Taxman was recorded than having money. People are complicated and don't fit into the boxes that other people want them to for their own idealism.
    Yes, that's why I choose the more prosaic (commonplace) explanation. And the Beatles weren't allowed to generate political themes with their music at that time. Harrison was upset over the 95% income tax rate, and he found in it an opportunity to create a simple ditty about the taxman. Period.

    When you read interviews in which the Beatles explain the meaning behind their songs, it rarely comes down to anything more profound than basic needs, either physical or emotional. "Revolution" is one of the rare exceptions. "Helter Skelter" was just Paul's attempt to produce something wild and raunchy. "Revolution 9" was just Lennon trying to be an avant-garde hipster. The line "the Walrus was Paul" was Lennon messing with our heads, and also a possible slight at Paul since the Walrus was a bad character.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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