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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I think he meant:

    Imagine that the concept of nationality is not used to divide people through the use of sloganeering and patriotism.
    Imagine that religion is used to unite people instead of divide them into 'true believer' or 'infidel' camps.
    Imagine that the concept of heaven is not dangled before people as an enticement for sanctioned behavior, or its absence as a punishment.
    So in a very real sense, this song is anti-religion because it invites people to look at reality outside of comfortable preconceptions…
    Having said that, I still think JL was a pretentious wanker, for the most part.
    "Question authority." This was a major theme in Lennon's day.

    But yes, Lennon doesn't particularly impress me with his lack of authenticity.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Agree with every single letter on your post.
    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I think he meant:

    Imagine that the concept of nationality is not used to divide people through the use of sloganeering and patriotism.
    Imagine that religion is used to unite people instead of divide them into 'true believer' or 'infidel' camps.
    Imagine that the concept of heaven is not dangled before people as an enticement for sanctioned behavior, or its absence as a punishment.
    So in a very real sense, this song is anti-religion because it invites people to look at reality outside of comfortable preconceptions…
    Having said that, I still think JL was a pretentious wanker, for the most part.

  3. #13
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    give me proof he was right-wing. please. i just can't imagine how it could be. but id like to be convinced otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    "Give Peace a Chance."

    Lennon was a right-winger, but he didn't wax political about his views. The Beatles were not a politically-oriented group, and the post-Beatle Lennon was only a "make love not war" kind of hippie protestor against the Vietnam war.

    More importantly than politics, Lennon was more dove than hawk. But his view was more complex than that, as he admitted the presence of a hawkish view within him, just as he stated the revolutionary types also have a doveish element about them. Yin-Yang. Human nature is in constant motion. Wheels.

    When Lennon wrote "Imagine" he was going through a strong anti-war "dove" phase, but he was not a revolutionary asking for social change, nor was he a communist. "Imagine" is just a poem in which he asks people to imagine a peaceful world where nobody wants for anything. Thinking about country and religion is not, in Lennon's view, conducive to a peaceful state of mind, because those are things that have to be defended.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The song is an anti-taxes/anti-taxation song, written and sang by some really rich guys. Its not a hippy attack on conventions to challenge taxation, unless I missed something, its the song which is most obviously the mirror opposite of the sentiments which liberals or commies relish in Imagine.
    The more prosaic formulas are usually correct in this case, especially in the early Beatles days when they were just writing junk lyrics and not being mysterious, obscure, or political. So I speculated that "Taxman" was about the increasing burden of taxes upon a group that was taking in more financially. Then I went to wikipedia and found that I was correct.

    Harrison said, "'Taxman' was when I first realised that even though we had started earning money, we were actually giving most of it away in taxes. It was and still is typical." The Beatles' large earnings placed them in the top tax bracket in the United Kingdom, liable to a 95% supertax introduced by Harold Wilson's Labour government. In a 1984 interview with Playboy magazine, Paul McCartney agreed: "George wrote that and I played guitar on it. He wrote it in anger at finding out what the taxman did. He had never known before then what he'll do with your money."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #15
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    some really rich guys that made money as a consequence of doing something they loved. i don't even know how they used the money they made and it's not even my place to want to know that, but just the fact they were not making music with the purpose of being rich or the fact that they didn't sell themselves is enough with me. and hey, this is coming from a communist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The song is an anti-taxes/anti-taxation song, written and sang by some really rich guys. Its not a hippy attack on conventions to challenge taxation, unless I missed something, its the song which is most obviously the mirror opposite of the sentiments which liberals or commies relish in Imagine.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    give me proof he was right-wing. please. i just can't imagine how it could be. but id like to be convinced otherwise.
    This page coincides with my memory of those days:
    http://politicalwire.com/archives/20...epublican.html
    John Lennon was a Republican?
    A new documentary based on interviews with John Lennon's personal assistant, Fred Seaman, "claims that the iconic rock star's political views had evolved by the end of the 1970's and that by the time Ronald Reagan was running for office Lennon had morphed into a Republican," according to Southern California Public Radio.

    Said Seaman: "John, basically, made it very clear that if he were an American he would vote for Reagan because he was really sour on Jimmy Carter."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    sorry, still not convinced. seems quite putative.
    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    This page coincides with my memory of those days:
    http://politicalwire.com/archives/20...epublican.html

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    "Give Peace a Chance."

    Lennon was a right-winger, but he didn't wax political about his views. The Beatles were not a politically-oriented group, and the post-Beatle Lennon was only a "make love not war" kind of hippie protestor against the Vietnam war.

    More importantly than politics, Lennon was more dove than hawk. But his view was more complex than that, as he admitted the presence of a hawkish view within him, just as he stated the revolutionary types also have a doveish element about them. Yin-Yang. Human nature is in constant motion. Wheels.

    When Lennon wrote "Imagine" he was going through a strong anti-war "dove" phase, but he was not a revolutionary asking for social change, nor was he a communist. "Imagine" is just a poem in which he asks people to imagine a peaceful world where nobody wants for anything. Thinking about country and religion is not, in Lennon's view, conducive to a peaceful state of mind, because those are things that have to be defended.
    Besides the contrary views expressed in Tax Man there's also "you say you want a revolution" which always has seemed to me to be the very epitomy of arch-conservative thinking, I saw interviews, read interviews and listened to interviews about that and no matter the reform vs. revolution, pragmatism vs. militancy or whatever spin was put on it it seemed the same.

    So I would say that its true that Lennon doesnt epitomise the liberal right on hippy many believe him to be, either supporters on the left or detractors on the right.

    The anti-war, and particularly anti-vietnam war, aspect is something which is a curiousity to me, there's been a lot of popular forgetting and revisionism take place with respect to that war because I've read books from the time, left and right wing which strongly suggest a lot of popular and institutional anti-war sentiment, it was before the abolition of conscription, the average age of the conscripts fighting it was much younger than that which had fought the second world war.

    Even some of the hawkish elements within the army thought that the trauma, drug addiction issues, atrocities and eventual flood of the US with scarred, one way or another, veterans was destructive in the extreme but they seem to have honestly believed that something like Red Dawn or atomic death was eminant.

  9. #19
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    I really don't agree with your views. Again, I sum this up with "contrary" versus "contradictory".

    John Lennon was super good at being incredibly cynical. The fact he doesn't believe in something does not mean he believes in its opposite.

    This is applicable to everything you've said before, from religion to the song taxman (which, besides, was apparently written by george harrison) and now the song revolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Besides the contrary views expressed in Tax Man there's also "you say you want a revolution" which always has seemed to me to be the very epitomy of arch-conservative thinking, I saw interviews, read interviews and listened to interviews about that and no matter the reform vs. revolution, pragmatism vs. militancy or whatever spin was put on it it seemed the same.

    So I would say that its true that Lennon doesnt epitomise the liberal right on hippy many believe him to be, either supporters on the left or detractors on the right.

    The anti-war, and particularly anti-vietnam war, aspect is something which is a curiousity to me, there's been a lot of popular forgetting and revisionism take place with respect to that war because I've read books from the time, left and right wing which strongly suggest a lot of popular and institutional anti-war sentiment, it was before the abolition of conscription, the average age of the conscripts fighting it was much younger than that which had fought the second world war.

    Even some of the hawkish elements within the army thought that the trauma, drug addiction issues, atrocities and eventual flood of the US with scarred, one way or another, veterans was destructive in the extreme but they seem to have honestly believed that something like Red Dawn or atomic death was eminant.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    sorry, still not convinced. seems quite putative.
    There are a lot of webpages out there. I won't be bothered to research something I've known for decades. You are certainly free to live with your beliefs about Lennon. I'm just saying the information is out there, not only in webpages but in biographies.

    In the early 1970s, Lennon was simply against all forms of violence. He was anti-Republican in terms of its hawkish agenda in Vietnam. He was not anti-Republican out of a sense of supporting communistic ideals.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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