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  1. #71
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    So what are the distinctions you had in mind?
    That those three things are not the same thing at all.

  2. #72
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That those three things are not the same thing at all.
    OK, so how is that relevant?

    I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to get at, that's all. I might even agree with you.

    It sounded like you had a point to make that might be insightful, so I'd be interested in hearing what it is.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    OK, so how is that relevant?

    I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to get at, that's all. I might even agree with you.

    It sounded like you had a point to make that might be insightful, so I'd be interested in hearing what it is.
    In order to believe that the implicit criticism in the OP photograph of people demonstrating was valid you'd have to consider corporatism, capitalism and the economy to all be synomynous. Which they arent.

    It is the economy, not corporations, through the medium of supply and demand, which provides all the things highlighted in the photograph. The economy predates and could post-date the lifespan of corporations, individually/specifically (for example the decline of Hoover and rise of Dyson in vacum cleaners, the decline of Sega and rise of Microsoft in games consoles) or as the archetypical firm/company.

    The same goes for capitalism, the economy does pre and could post date it, to state such is nothing more than has been stated by capitalist historians themselves, even classical liberals or capitalist radicals who scorn earlier epochs in human history and consider any deviation from their ideology as ultimatley atavistic returns to/or hankering after those ages, ie The Road To Serfdom.

  4. #74
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncommonentity View Post
    That view spits in the face of all individuals that forced change.
    Your view spits in the face of all social movements and the change that they were able to effect.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #75
    Senior Member uncommonentity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Your view spits in the face of all social movements and the change that they were able to effect.
    That wouldn't of worked without individual change.

    I get what you're saying.

    Sometimes it does take a group to get peoples asses into gear but the fact is it shouldn't.

    Everyone should do their part.

    The act of protesting can be skipped.
    Veni, Vidi, Cessi.

  6. #76
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncommonentity View Post
    That wouldn't of worked without individual change.
    If that's what you mean, then there is no reason to exclude the importance of collective action, as they pretty much go hand-in-hand.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #77
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncommonentity View Post
    Individual change.

    Everyone dies.

    We must replace the evil hearted with the good hearted.
    OK. I'm just trying to make sure we are discussing the same thing, and you're not helping much. I still can't tell from what you wrote whether or not we are talking about the same thing.

    So. This is the premise of the protests, and the principles behind it that I'm talking about (with important bits bolder or larger to make it easier to scan):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_St

    ...proposed a peaceful occupation of Wall Street to protest corporate influence on democracy, address a growing disparity in wealth, and the absence of legal repercussions behind the recent global financial crisis.
    Beginning from one simple demand – a presidential commission to separate money from politics – we start setting the agenda for a new America.
    ...the demonstration is leaderless.... The protests have brought together people of many political positions.
    I agree that there are problems with it because it is leaderless and involves different groups of people who have different ideas about how to solve these problems, but at least it is eliciting some big discussions. See below for more comments about this.


    Perceptions vary as to the specific goals of the movement....

    Peripheral demands such as raising taxes on the rich, raising taxes on corporations, ending corporate welfare, support for trade unionism, and protecting Medicare and Social Security in their traditional forms are expressed by some participants.[72] Other protesters are calling for an audit or elimination of the Federal Reserve, affordable healthcare, and dismantling the military-industrial complex.

    Despite the various lists of demands, some non-partisan groups and supporters of the protest have expressed concern that the proposed agenda items are not addressing some of the root causes. Political activist Lawrence Lessig argues that the problems on Wall Street have been caused by corruption in Washington that has been perpetuated by a deep conflict of interests. He further states that because both parties depend on Wall Street's money to fund their campaigns, they will not dare to cross the interests of Wall Street.
    The protest has been criticized for lack of focus and actionable agenda. In an article that was critical of the protesters, Ginia Bellafante wrote in The New York Times:
    "The group’s lack of cohesion and its apparent wish to pantomime progressivism rather than practice it knowledgeably is unsettling in the face of the challenges so many of its generation face – finding work, repaying student loans, figuring out ways to finish college when money has run out."

    Glenn Greenwald responded to this criticism, writing,
    "Does anyone really not know what the basic message is of this protest: that Wall Street is oozing corruption and criminality and its unrestrained political power—in the form of crony capitalism and ownership of political institutions—is destroying financial security for everyone else?"

    On October 8, the New York Times released an editorial statement, expressing their official stance on the demand debate:
    "It is not the job of the protesters to draft legislation. That’s the job of the nation’s leaders, and if they had
    been doing it all along there might not be a need for these marches and rallies. Because they have not, the public airing of grievances is a legitimate and important end in itself."

    On October 12, the Washington Post interviewed Kalle Lasn about how he sees the global revolution playing out and the criticism of the movement being leaderless and for having no focus. He replied:
    "The initial phase of the revolution... is leaderless, and the protesters are not hopping into bed with any party, even the Democratic party...As the winter approaches, I think there will be different phases and ideas, possibly fragmentation into different agendas. I think crystal-clear demands will emanate... The messy, leaderless, demandless movement has launched a national conversation of the likes that we haven’t had in 20 years. That’s as good as it gets! Not every one needs to have a leader with clear demands. That’s the old way of launching revolutions. This revolution is run by the Internet generation, with egalitarian ways of looking at things, and an inclusive process of getting everyone involved. That’s the magic of it."[89]

    Quote Originally Posted by uncommonentity View Post
    We must replace the evil hearted with the good hearted.
    So, I don't think it is as hopeless as your statement above seems to imply. People aren't going to just give up and accept government corruption, or shrug their shoulders and wish for more good hearted people who would regulate their own behavior.

    There are ways to prevent corruption, even within the confines of human nature as we know it.

    I personally don't know what the solutions are, but I do believe we can find better ways of doing it than we are currently. The lobby system might be a good place to start examining and improving, also campaign contributions, and government transparency.

  8. #78
    Senior Member uncommonentity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    If that's what you mean, then there is no reason to exclude the importance of collective action, as they pretty much go hand-in-hand.
    Collective action is unnecessary and can be skipped. Individual change is an absolute requirement and can be achieved without collective action.


    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    OK. I'm just trying to make sure we are discussing the same thing, and you're not helping much. I still can't tell from what you wrote whether or not we are talking about the same thing.
    I'm talking about the same thing. It's a question of faith but more so fact. There are ways to temporarily prevent corruption. It will forever exist as a part of nature.

    P/J Loop-the-Loops can go on forever so I'm pulling out of this one to agree to disagree on the basis of opinion and the fact I need to pee. The ENTJs who have posted state truth.
    Veni, Vidi, Cessi.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncommonentity View Post
    That wouldn't of worked without individual change.

    I get what you're saying.

    Sometimes it does take a group to get peoples asses into gear but the fact is it shouldn't.

    Everyone should do their part.

    The act of protesting can be skipped.
    I'm not so sure but I take your point, at least what I think is your point, social change and even restructuring of an economy can have its advent without protest, the advent of capitalism probably predated any political protest, to be honest I think that it was a last step, a sort of consolidation of a positions which already existed in fact.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncommonentity View Post
    Collective action is unnecessary and can be skipped. Individual change is an absolute requirement and can be achieved without collective action.
    About this I'm less sure, there will always be individuals who matter more than others, because they possess different power or resources and can sway the outcomes or seek to steer the course of social change but I do think that collective action always has and probably always will trumph individual action, its pretty idealistic and ahistorical to suppose otherwise.

    Unless you're endorsing some sort of great man theory of history like Hegel or a Bonapartist

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