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  1. #31
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Ah, why didn't they fire the heads of the banks? I mean if we are going to (or did) bail them out, we have some leverage.
    The heads of the banks that failed were PAID BONUSES (as per their contracts), with the BAILOUT MONEY!!!

    I wish I were rewarded for fucking things up, I'd do it alot more often, I guarantee it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Also, doesn't bailing out the banks actually benefit the people who would lose their shit due to the failure?
    You are assuming that the banks are going to "pass the benveolence" to their debtees.
    They did not.

    Loan modifications on mortgages were made at a much lower rate, and more slowly than was expected, or needed to stabilize realestate markets more effectively than occurred.

    Also, the biggest problem with the banks now is that they are SITTING ON THE MONEY.

    Banks are the nations money supply, not the Federal Reserve.

    By lending money to small business and individuals alike, banks "create money" in that they are generating interest reveue via the loan of a portion of their cash on deposit, and the businessmen therefore are out in their communities CREATING JOBS with the projects they are completeing to MAKE A PROFIT and payback the bank.

    The banks were GIVEN a huge amount of baiolout money, and instead of using it to "prime the economy" out of a recession, they have chosen to use it to enrich their books and mitigate losses to the degree possible so that they look more solvent than they really are.

    Plus, the requirements to get a mortgage or even a home equity loan right now are absurd. I own my house outright and my wife and I applied for a home equity loan. Between the two of us we do OK income-wise, we are not rich by any means, but we are comfortable and live within our means. I have no car payments and no consumer debt. Both my wife and I have been at the same jobs for almost three years. It was like getting teeth pulled to get a $25,000 home equity loan, even though we wanted to use the money to renovate our house, get some pretty hefty car repairs, and take a small vacation to South Beach, Miami this past July.

    Basically, now more than ever before, the only people who can BORROW MONEY are the people who already HAVE PLENTY OF MONEY.

    This is not an environment where innovative, motivated small business owners can start up, or let alone survive.
    They can't get a loan to start up shop, their clients don't have disposable income and even if they did are most likely holding onto it for dear life, and so the whole nation is in an economic quagmire.

    Finally, if anyone is not aware of the decimation of the middle class that has been going on in the past 20 years, WAKE UP!


    - 80% of this nation's wealth is held by the richest 2% of the American population.

    - We have been gouged, taxed, and ripped off on everything we've purchase for years, and been told by our employers that even though they have posted record quarter after record quarter, that there just isn't enough money to give people raises this year AGAIN.

    - Employment benefits (helath care, pension/401K, life insurance, paid time off, etc.) have been systematically eliminated or minimized with techniques like hiring a huge staff of part-time employees and barely any full-time employees, or just simply putting so much of the cost of benefits directly on the shoulders of employees that it makes a significant dent in the worker's actual NET take home salary. Guess what? People need health care to live a decent life. Without affordable health care from private employers, people end up on Medicaid, and that costs everyone working even more money via taxes, and the taxpayers are getting NOTHING for the huge amount of money they are shelling out.

    - Florida has about a $60 BILLION per year State budget. This past fiscal year (2010-2011) there were 3 MILLION PEOPLE on Medicaid, and the total expenditures of the Florida Medicaid Program were $20 BILLION. Next year enrollment is project to grow even more, and the State must find a way to fund a projected deficit of $1 BILLION.
    Five years ago, BEFORE the RECESSION, ther were 2.2 MILLION PEOPLE on Medicaid in Florida, and the total program expenditures were $15 BILLION.

    NOTE 1= 50% of Florida's Mediaid budget (and most State's Medicaid budgets) is paid for by Federal Matching Assistance Program (FMAP) dollars from the Federal Government. So the net impact of the Florida Medicaid program on the State's GENERAL REVEUE (collected from ad valorem property taxes, sales taxes, and other taxes levied in-state) - which is still HUGE.

    NOTE 2= The "trigger to become "eligible" for Medicaid is to have annual household earnings that are at or below FPL (the Federal Poverty Level).

    So, do you see the problem?
    We're in a recession.
    Many people who are working are uninsured.
    Many others have lost their jobs.
    Because so many have remained unemployed for so long, they have sank to the Federal Government's poverty level of income.
    Thus, many are ENTITLED to FREE HEALTH CARE from their State's Medicaid program. (If you're female with a child under 21 it's almost guaranteed, if you're a male who is not currently on disability of some kind, for some reason, then you are screwed, no Medicaid for you, go to the ER and enjoy the many huge bill(s) they send you)
    Banks are not lending money to small business, so this vicious cycle continues to perpetuate.

    And we're the ones who bailed those greedy fucks out in the first place? FUCK THAT.

    CORPORATIONS are JUST AS GUILTY:
    Look at how low corporate income tax rates are nationally, look at the plethora of tax breaks corporations get, look how they have slashed wages to a minimum, fired people and forced the remaining staff to pick up the work (thus increasing the workload, and life stress of each remaining worker), and how little benefits they now offer their employees.

    Greed has taken over. The capitalists and the government are systematically sheering the sheep more than ever before via taxes and a huge lack of gainful employment opportunities. We're the fucking sheep. The middle class made this country great, and now they are being targeted for extinction.

    Something has to give.
    I'm not letting my kids inherit this shitbag of a situation; they deserve better.
    If things don't get alot better in a reasonabl amount of time I'm out of here.



    -Alex
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  2. #32
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    ^^Fo' real.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #33
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    @Halla74

    Awesome post!

    After your OP, I was a bit confused. I thought you were gonna argue for corruption and bankers keeping the money for themselves or something.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    You are assuming that the banks are going to "pass the benveolence" to their debtees.
    They did not.

    Also, the biggest problem with the banks now is that they are SITTING ON THE MONEY.
    This, in a nutshell, is why the whole "cutting taxes on rich people and companies creates jobs" line of thinking is so asinine. For this to work, all actors have to behave in an altruistic manner. Let's see...a tax cut creates $1 million more in revenue for Company X. Will Company X use that money to...

    A. Recall laid off employees?
    B. Restore benefits for employees?
    C. Buy a bigger boat?

    I think we all know the answer to that question.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  5. #35
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    @Halla74

    Awesome post!
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    After your OP, I was a bit confused. I thought you were gonna argue for corruption and bankers keeping the money for themselves or something.
    I'm chock full of surprises.
    Have a great evening!

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    This, in a nutshell, is why the whole "cutting taxes on rich people and companies creates jobs" line of thinking is so asinine. For this to work, all actors have to behave in an altruistic manner. Let's see...a tax cut creates $1 million more in revenue for Company X. Will Company X use that money to...

    A. Recall laid off employees?
    B. Restore benefits for employees?
    C. Buy a bigger boat?

    I think we all know the answer to that question.
    Brilliantly stated!

    In other words, "Trickle Down Economics is BULLSHIT!!!"



    -Alex
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  6. #36
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    @Halla74, nice post. You covered a lot of bases.

    I have a book: "All the Devils are Here: the hidden history of the financial crisis" I've not read the whole thing. It's quite detailed, and it irritates me to read it.

    An important point, various people warned about the dangers of the sub-prime market, but those employees of banks were, at least in some cases, fired. This is not the only instance where self-regulation was a cruel joke on the rest of us.

    I have my own theories of what kind of society we need. There must be a way to have the efficiency of the profit motive, but also have better public services such as full medical care for every citizen. That is, I believe the profit motive is wonderfully efficient, but very unbalanced. A frequent argument is that if we increase taxes on the rich, people will loose jobs...or likewise that reduction of taxes on corporations of the rich will create jobs.

    Thus, if increase of profits do not go to reinvestment in creating jobs and improving things, they should be very progressively taxed. If the increase profit goes instead to conspicuous consumption (nicer corporate jets) and waste and bonuses for executives, then they should not be allowed to keep that portion of the profit. The idea that corporations will do what is best for everyone, and that it will trickle down doesn't seem to work as long as people own $10 million dollar boats and such things.

    Anyway, the people released a statement, at least according to this video:

    link

  7. #37
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    @Halla74, nice post. You covered a lot of bases.
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    I have a book: "All the Devils are Here: the hidden history of the financial crisis" I've not read the whole thing. It's quite detailed, and it irritates me to read it.
    Sounds interesting! <adds to book list>
    Why can't authors of such books take to heart the business world's love of bullet points, reference tables, and illustrative diagrams?
    Personally, I hate long winded, overly detailed writing, but if there are gems to be found I power through it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    An important point, various people warned about the dangers of the sub-prime market, but those employees of banks were, at least in some cases, fired. This is not the only instance where self-regulation was a cruel joke on the rest of us.
    Great point!
    There are no "whistle blower protections."
    Whenever the policies of Power Elites are criticized, the elites retaliate with unheard of ferocity.

    Look at what happened to Daniel Ellsberg when he released "The Pentagon Papers."

    Also, I saw documentary about "ENRON" and was shocked to learn that young financial analyst who had done some research on ENRON and wrote a column stating that their growth seemed suspect was "visited" by two "ENRON Analysts" who basically intimidated her with their massive stature and aggressive presentation of "counter analysis" to her article.

    Look what's happening to Julian Assange (sp?) (the "WikiLeaks" dude) right now. He's not too comfy.
    Personally, I'm delighted that those cables have been linked to the revolutions in Tunisia and other North African nations with corrupt/oppressive regimes.

    For those who wish to attempt to reveal scandal in the hopes of preventing cataclysm, be very, very careful!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    I have my own theories of what kind of society we need. There must be a way to have the efficiency of the profit motive, but also have better public services such as full medical care for every citizen. That is, I believe the profit motive is wonderfully efficient, but very unbalanced. A frequent argument is that if we increase taxes on the rich, people will loose jobs...or likewise that reduction of taxes on corporations of the rich will create jobs.

    Thus, if increase of profits do not go to reinvestment in creating jobs and improving things, they should be very progressively taxed. If the increase profit goes instead to conspicuous consumption (nicer corporate jets) and waste and bonuses for executives, then they should not be allowed to keep that portion of the profit. The idea that corporations will do what is best for everyone, and that it will trickle down doesn't seem to work as long as people own $10 million dollar boats and such things.
    WOW! This is one of the best ideas I have heard in a long time! I love it!

    My most recent thoughts specific to meaningful reform is centered around a complete elimination of "insurance" as we know it.
    Insurance companies are the "Special Forces" of Satan's army, IMHO.

    (1) They collect (expensive!) premiums from us FOR EVERYTHING for our whole lives:
    (a) Car Insurance
    (b) Health Insurance
    (c) Property Insurance
    (d) Health Insurance
    (e) Mortgage Insurance
    (f) Workers Compensation Insurance
    (g) Too many others to mention...

    (2) Whenever we have a need to use the COVERAGE that we have paid for via our PREMIUMS, the insurance companies do everything possible to "exempt" as much of our claim as possible, and in some cases (the biggest of the mall, PROPERTY INSURANCE) they will deny the claim completely when there is a total loss on a home.

    CONSUMER: "My home was destroyed by a hurricane, the roof was torn off and it rained for three days straight damaging all the load bearing walls of my home beyond repair and destroying all my household possessions. I wish to file a claim so that I can buy a new home."

    INSURANCE COMPANY: [I]"We're sorry, Sir. You're home was destroyed by FLOODING (Bullshit! No flood occurred! The fucking hurrican rains did not relent for 3 days! No flooding via stormwater or river water occurred!), and you do not have a FLOOD INSURANCE policy, you have a WIND INSURANCE policy. So, we can re-imburse you $20,000 for your roof, but the rest of your home is not eligible for replacement, and you'll have to pay those expenses out of your pocket."

    Can you imagine how devastating such a phone conversation would feel to someone whose family just lost their home and everything they own, and were paying property insurance premiums for 20 years, and just got sold up the river? Such practices are DISGUSTING and should be ILLEGAL.

    LIFE INSURANCE HORROR: :horor:
    A friend of mine was completely screwed over when her husband died last year after losing a two-year battle with cancer.

    - He purchased annual renewable term (ART) life insurance almost twenty years ago, and stayed with the same insurer the whole time.

    - He paid a more expensive premium each year as he aged, which is typical for this type of policy.

    - Then, ~20 years later at the time of his death, his widow, my friend, was told:
    "We're sorry Maam. Cancer is not covered in this policy. If your husband had a CANCER POLICY in addition to his LIFE INSURANCE POLICY we could pay the benefits."

    HEALTH INSURANCE HORROR:
    A friend of mine and his wife recently had their third child.
    Due to the horrid economy he had to close his business, which he ran for the past 15 years.
    Closing the company forced him to change health insurance providers.
    He could no longer be a member of the HMO that he belonged to when he had his business and covered his family as well as those of his staff (because he is a DECENT person!)
    So, he purchased a classic "INDEMNITY" policy from Blue Cross/Blue Shield to cover his family's health insurance needs.

    Guess what?
    Because his wife had a diagnosis of OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) she was deemed to be UNINSURABLE!

    OK, not covering for OCD (because it is a pre-existing condition) would have been bad enough, but not covering her her for EVERYTHING (Rx, inpatient hospital if needed, physician's fees, OB-GYN services, etc.) is an atrocity, especially since she recently just gave birth.

    THIS SHIT MUST END!!!!!!

    My Conceptual Solution
    I'll bet that if I added up all the money I've paid for "car insurance" from the time I was 16 to my current age of 37, and then deducted the payouts I have filed claims for, that the insurance company has made a shitload of money on me.

    What if I had just invested all the money I put into car insurance premiums?
    Then, in theory I should have been able to pay cash for whatever repairs I've needed when they occurred.

    Considering the horrible examples of how LIFE INSURANCE and HEALTH INSURANCE and PROPERTY INSURANCE providers are RIPPING PEOPLE OFF by not paying out or even offering coverage to people when needed, the same could be said of them.

    If I added up all that I have paid in CAR, LIFE, PROPERTY, and HEALTH INSURANCE for the past 21 years I would most likely have a fucking heart attack.

    I'm going to build a mathematical model that explores these possibilities, and if the odds are favorable, I very well just might never pay a fucking insurance company a goddamn thing for the rest of my life.

    (A) THERE'S NO FUCKING GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL BE COVERED WHEN YOU NEED IT!!!
    (B) THEY HAVE AN ARMY OF LAWYERS THAT WILL FUCK YOU OVER IF YOU TRY TO SUE THEM!!!
    (C) WHAT'S THE POINT ANYMORE??? SERIOUSLY???

    FINAL BONE OF CONTENTION
    Here's another example about HEALTH INSURANCE that will piss you off and make you sick.
    For three years I worked for the Florida Medicaid Program.
    I was a "Senior Database Analyst" and the contract manager for the State's Actuarial Services Contract.

    (NOTE: Actuaries are essentially extremely well versed statisticians. Most have skills querying databases as well as working with statistical software such as SPSS or SAS. They get paid about $400 an hour to ensure that things like HMO premiums, pension funds, and other types of insurance products/financial products are "actuarially sound" - or that the amount of premium being paid to an insurer is sufficent to cover the target population in question for the level of risk that the insurer is assuming for covering each potential policyholder.)

    Every year, my boss and I would query up millions of Medicaid claims, aggregate them approriately for every program we were calculating rates for (about 20 different sets of rates, each set for 11 different regions or "service districts" in the State of Florida, by age band, by gender, and by Medicaid eligibility type (TANF or SSI).

    We submitted our "Draft Rates" to the actuaries for review, and they would then go over our work, model it themselves, and work with us via conference call regarding any potential issues they identified, or any recommendations they had to improve the rate setting process. It is State Law that all HMO rates in Florida must be certified by an independent 3rd party actuary. If this did not occur, every insurer in the state would throw up their arms and cry foul that the State was rigging HMO rates and then try to sue the State. So, actuarial services are worth their weight in gold for any work specific to insurance or finances. Once we came to an agreement with the actuaries about each set of rates they would certify them as "actuarially sound" and those are the rates for a given program for a one year period of time.

    HERE'S THE PROBLEM:
    Medicaid rates are simple.
    Let's take one of the bigger areas of Florida, the Miami/Dade Metro Area.

    According to the Actuaries:
    "People are People. An HMO in a given district, offering services under a given program should be paid the same PMPM (Per Member Per Month, or "Premium") for any person who falls into a given age and gender band."

    This makes sense, doesn't it?

    This means that a HMO will be paid the same amount of money per month to cover the health care expenses of a 37 year old male or female, regardless of whether they are Caucasian, African-American, Hispanic, Asian, etc.
    This is COMMON SENSE, right?

    Well, for State Medicaid and Federal Medicare programs it is.
    In the PRIVATE SECTOR - HMO's FUCK PEOPLE OVER with NO ACTUARIAL CREDIBILITY.

    Here's how.
    Health Insurance rates for working people are usually dependent of what type of coverage is offered by THEIR EMPLOYER.

    Guess what?
    - BIG EMPLOYERS pay LESS MONEY per month for each of their employees.
    - SMALL EMPLOYERS PAY MORE for each person per month.
    - People that are SELF EMPLOYED get COMPLETELY FUCKING RIPPED OFF.

    How do I know? I've paid to cover my family of four people in all three environments.
    SO, to provide HMO coverage for my wife, two kids, and myself, here are the monthly rates FOR THE SAME PLAN:

    EMPLOYEE of the STATE of FLORIDA (Large Employer, 1,000's of Employees): = $190 Per Month

    EMPLOYEE of a PRIVATE SECTOR SOFTWARE COMPANY (~200 Employees): = $500 Per Month

    SELF-EMPLOYED: = $1,600 Per Month

    What the fuck is going on?!?!?
    - The Actuaries said "People are People."

    - BUT - Private Health Insurance Companies negotiate contract rates with employers based on the number of employees the company has, and NOT according to the ACTUAL AMOUNT of RISK that the insurer will assume by enrolling each employee.

    Do you know what this is called?

    PRICE GOUGING!!!

    Gas stations get fined by the State when they gouge consumers via hiking gas prices way higher than is actually warranted, such as when HYSTERIA causes people to think there is an imminent risk of a localized gas shortage (Such as occured here in North Florida when Hurrican Katrina hit years ago, and gas prices soared above $4 per gallon).

    So, why the fuck is it ACCEPTABLE let alone LEGAL for Health Insurance Companies to GOUGE every working person in America who doesn't work for a LARGE EMPLOYER?

    SUCH PRACTICES ARE UNETHICAL and SHOULD BE ILLEGAL!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Anyway, the people released a statement, at least according to this video:

    link
    WOW! What an awesome press release!!!!

    ------------------------------
    CLOSING COMMENT:

    Be aware of the treachery and corruption that is widespread and that is affecting your life.

    The only way we as ordinary people can mitigate being bled to death by predatory scum like banks and insurance companies is to find alternative methods of fulfilling these needs in our lives.

    This is not easy, and that is why these institutions have been ransacked by bloodthirsty greedmongers, because they know EVERYONE needs access to such services.

    In the long run, some type of legitimate legal reform MUST OCCUR if any of us are to have any hope of being rid of these plagues.

    Accomplishing this in a world run by self-serving special interest groups and corrupt politicians will not be easy, but if we do not try, then we have no right to bitch about the horrid treatment we receive in comparison to the exhorbitant fees we pay our whole lives for services that should be affordable and accessible to EVERYONE in a country that is as RICH and GREAT as ours.

    COMPLACENCY and APATHY will get us nowhere, that is guaranteed.



    -Alex
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  8. #38
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    @Halla74: just wow.

    Well, maybe someone should make stuff like that illegal. Why haven't we?
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    @Halla74: just wow.

    Well, maybe someone should make stuff like that illegal. Why haven't we?
    Because the people that we the people of these united states hire every 2-4 years to protect us, have had to pave their campaign trail with promises to not protect us.

    The principles on which this country were founded, are long gone, and have been replaced by greed, a lack of ethics, and a complete tossing out the window of common sense.

    P.s. @Halla74 another amazing post by you .

  10. #40
    You're fired. Lol. Antimony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Because the people that we the people of these united states hire every 2-4 years to protect us, have had to pave their campaign trail with promises to not protect us.

    The principles on which this country were founded, are long gone, and have been replaced by greed, a lack of ethics, and a complete tossing out the window of common sense.

    P.s. another amazing post by you .
    Lol, I took off the tags so that Halla wouldn't be spammed. Now it just looks like you were complimenting my post haha.

    Anyway, situations like this make me feel extremely lacking in power. I wish I could do something, but it really seems I can't.

    And this is why I used to seriously consider running for president.
    Excuse me, but does this smell like chloroform to you?

    Always reserve the right to become smarter at a future point in time, for only a fool limits themselves to all they knew in the past. -Alex

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