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  1. #91
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmhmm View Post
    i <3 bonuses.
    Did you take billions of dollars and bankrupt a company? Did you then get a bonus out of the money the government gave you to bail out your company? Did you indulge in a lot of risky investments, and fire the people who who warned you about them? Did you deny people's valid medical claims, and then receive promotions and bonuses because of it?

  2. #92
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Corporations/Capitalism is practically epitomized in an at times hilarious way here (reminded of this by it airing last night):
    [YOUTUBE="RESMWmMt3gA"]http://youtu.be/puGopmeupYE[/YOUTUBE][YOUTUBE="puGopmeupYE"]http://youtu.be/puGopmeupYE[/YOUTUBE]
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  3. #93
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    I can't claim to be "anti-corporate" since I do enjoy a whole plethora of corporate products (mostly foods & candies), but as a societal employment trend I do find it saddening & alienating. Corporate culture is absurd & degrading on nearly every level, from what I've seen, & I hate that it's the only viable option for so many.
    RCUAI
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  4. #94
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    I can't claim to be "anti-corporate" since I do enjoy a whole plethora of corporate products (mostly foods & candies), but as a societal employment trend I do find it saddening & alienating. Corporate culture is absurd & degrading on nearly every level, from what I've seen, & I hate that it's the only viable option for so many.
    I'm not sure that's corporatism, it could be managerialism, which is alienating and its alienating because it embodies things like the Peter Principle or Disco Biscuit's upper and lower percentile research, about the wrong people getting promoted and the organisational culture suffering. Besides that I find managerialism creates some gross inequalities within the organisation and between those working for the organisation and others or other organisations. Boardroom pay is frequently scandalous and often, I feel, deliberately provocative.

    The thing about corporations which I dislike is that the divisions between management and ownership have not always been to the benefit of shareholders, customers and the public. That's my specific grievance with the idea. So you have scenarios such as failing banks which were bailed out by tax payers in which boards can award themselves scandalous bonuses and payrises still, the shareholders often are not in a position to sanction such actions or if they could the actions required and consesus is lacking.

    I dont know that enjoying the produce of the economy can make you in a position where you cant oppose corporatism or capitalism, although I've been over that.

  5. #95
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure that's corporatism, it could be managerialism, which is alienating and its alienating because it embodies things like the Peter Principle or Disco Biscuit's upper and lower percentile research, about the wrong people getting promoted and the organisational culture suffering.
    I think you're right. But didn't the 'manager class' idea (the idea that there should a separate class of workers who only manage other workers) arise out of corporate evolution? They seem intimately connected to me. But you're right. They are separable issues, since those employment practices happen everywhere now.

    I dont know that enjoying the produce of the economy can make you in a position where you cant oppose corporatism or capitalism, although I've been over that.
    Yeah, that's true. Some people (well, to a degree all people) have no choice but to consume corporate products. But morally speaking, I think your ideas / convictions (or at least 'what you say') should balance with your behavior, with the balance weighted by freedom & necessity.

    Someone like me who isn't very poor has other options besides consuming some of the corporate crap I do, so I don't think I have the ethical privelege of being too gung-ho about it.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    I think you're right. But didn't the 'manager class' idea (the idea that there should a separate class of workers who only manage other workers) arise out of corporate evolution? They seem intimately connected to me. But you're right. They are separable issues, since those employment practices happen everywhere now.
    It was more an issue of owners and workers, Marx thought it was the ultimate division between classes but then owners appointed managers to run things in their abscence, corporations came along later as a seperate innovation seperating ownership and management or the enterprise altogether through the medium of share ownership.

    Corporations where meant to be time limited ventures, usually for some public or quasi-public purpose and limiting the liability of those involved as a consequence, like building a bridge or something, although they became the ultimate form of the business enterprise or company and as a result their time limited status wasnt policed, they usually stuck around for good.

    Mega corporations now could have a lot of seperate interests or subsidiaries, so you have company which intersect or which have close relationships but which appear to operate independently and they effectively plan the economy like central planners, its less the case where competition exists but in emerging economies or dependent nations they virtually own the government and people via the economy. Its not a matter of bribery or corruption, just being the owner operators.

    Yeah, that's true. Some people (well, to a degree all people) have no choice but to consume corporate products. But morally speaking, I think your ideas / convictions (or at least 'what you say') should balance with your behavior, with the balance weighted by freedom & necessity.

    Someone like me who isn't very poor has other options besides consuming some of the corporate crap I do, so I don't think I have the ethical privelege of being too gung-ho about it.
    Well, its like the old idea that money is tempting most to those who dont have it or opting out or avoiding things you find corruptable or contemptable is only an option for the privileged, life's full of dilemmas.

  7. #97
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I've not said that I was anti-corporate. Technically I work for a private corporation and I LOVE bonuses too. The thing is, if I screw up, then I DON'T get one. Also, I'm quite poor by "Wall Street" standards.

    There's an idea that increasing taxes on the rich will hurt the economy because it will cost jobs. Also there's an idea that decreasing taxes on the rich will stimulate the economy.

    The essential fact is that if rich people get money, they keep it. That's why they are rich. Profit is everything. Their profits, income, and net worth continuously go up. As the saying goes, "The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer."

  8. #98
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure that's corporatism, it could be managerialism, which is alienating and its alienating because it embodies things like the Peter Principle or Disco Biscuit's upper and lower percentile research, about the wrong people getting promoted and the organisational culture suffering.
    I would be interested in this, because I've noticed the same thing in a number of cases.

    @DiscoBiscuit Where can I find this info?

  9. #99
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    I've not said that I was anti-corporate. Technically I work for a private corporation and I LOVE bonuses too. The thing is, if I screw up, then I DON'T get one. Also, I'm quite poor by "Wall Street" standards.

    There's an idea that increasing taxes on the rich will hurt the economy because it will cost jobs. Also there's an idea that decreasing taxes on the rich will stimulate the economy.

    The essential fact is that if rich people get money, they keep it. That's why they are rich. Profit is everything. Their profits, income, and net worth continuously go up. As the saying goes, "The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer."
    That's not quite true. They give a bit of their money to people in power who can help them make even more and keep more.

    And to be fair, some of them give a lot to charity (like Gates and Buffet), but I would guess they are a minority.

  10. #100
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    That's not quite true. They give a bit of their money to people in power who can help them make even more and keep more.

    And to be fair, some of them give a lot to charity (like Gates and Buffet), but I would guess they are a minority.

    Buffet has said he will give all his money to charity, or so I believe.

    I'm over simplifying things. You can vary it down to the individual.

    There are alternative systems of both government and economics. There are systems which have the best of both worlds for everyone, not just the elite. I believe there needs to be change.

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