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  1. #51
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Bumpity Bump Bump!!

    Umm...tons of doods already beat you to it, old chap.

    http://www.askmen.com/
    Yeah, mine would be good and have laughs though.

  2. #52
    Senior Member shoshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Do you mean 'Slut Walk'? You make a good point about feminism and sexuality. I think a lot has to do with the intersection of grass roots feminism to how it unavoidably intersected with and got co-opted by pop culture. Kinda like the idea of a classically beautiful, very sexy, very glamorous heroine who is ALSO smart, successful, etc. She may even be allowed to be a bad ass and therefore be marketed as being a feminist. But, she still has to be beautiful and overtly sexy to get any legitimacy in mainstream bookshelves and airwaves. That pretty much defines the majority of female heroines on TV or movies today, if you scale down 'overt sexiness' to just 'sexiness' that's most of the female heroines. In addition to being an impossible ideal, this trope heroine isn't borne of feminism but mainstream expectations and women's traditional role in society as an object.

    So in a round about way, when feminism tried to reclaim a woman's sexuality, society/the media just smelled 'sex' in the air, jumped on it, and twisted it around. Unfortunately, it is still true but regardless of the merit of ideas, if you yell "SEX" you have a much better shot at being picked up by the press.

    And with society today being so hypersexualized and women still being faced with the double edged sword of 'sexiness', it's partly natural that feminism would seem to focus more on sexuality. But, really, I think 'unsexy' feminism is just not getting much mainstream attention.

    Feminism says you can be beautiful in any way that you are, and in fact, you can be downright ugly at the end of the day. A woman's worth is measured by way more than how many men want to screw her. Crudely put, but true.

    Ironically (?) Norman Mailer called Andrea Dworkin an "ugly fat lesbian" to try to delegitimize anything she was saying about pornography and how society degrades women. Who gives a fuck about her ideas and her thoughts, just call her ugly and shut her up.

    ^^I know that is somehow related to my point but I'm lapsing now...let's return to this later shall we?

    And all is not lost!! There are all sorts of feminism, you can still find substance with us. So, don't give up your membership yet. (Just think of V-day, it sounds sexual like 'Vagina day', what? But Eve Ensler created a really successful campaign against violence against women.)
    i agree with your argument about the slut walk, but i'm not too sure i was successful in getting my original point across. i simply wanted to know if you think that the specific cause that those women were marching for is something legitimate (as it gained a lot of media attention). it's not like it was a dyke march or anything like that -- i think it was women who essentially making the claim that they should not have to worry about what they are wearing when they leave the house. and i'd say that it's a pretty naive sentiment in that of itself. if they were marching for a womans right to wear what she wants in order to feel sexy, that is fine. but that is not the impression i got.

    on another note -- i'm completely fascinated with america's fear of breasts. i saw a recent clip or something on colbert where a woman was arguing that women should not be allowed to breastfeed in public. and the counter-argument was that women should not have to go to a bathroom or a closet to feed their fucking child (obviously this is where i stand). why are breasts so controversial... especially in terms that they are supposed to serve a function when it comes to the nurturing of offspring. i was in central park, nyc recently with a few friends and my friend wanted to sunbathe topless but was afraid of being judged when it is perfectly legal to do so.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Young man, I have no limits for myself. THE SKY'S THE MOTHER EFFIN' LIMIT.

    But, I do have boundaries for you and your XY brethren!
    [youtube="pz-qN9aIm9k"]No Ma'am![/youtube]

  4. #54
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Thanks for answering! Now, MOAR KWESSHUNZ.

    1) Besides "bitch", "dyke", "whore", "chick", etc., what other terms would you say are sexist? How about "wench", "fair sex", "hysterical" or "frigid"?

    2) Can men be feminists? Or just sympathizers?

    3) What makes someone a feminist? If someone finds Robin Tunney beautiful, or enjoys a work of fiction that has some sexist undertones, is s/he still a feminist?

    4) What do you think of men who justify their lewd behavior by claiming that they're men and thus slaves to their "inferior" animalistic impulses?

  5. #55
    Senior Member shoshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Can men be feminists? Or just sympathizers?
    oh fuck yeah male feminists exist.

    fighting and believing in equal rights has never strictly reserved for the 'minority' group in question. we've seen examples of individuals, that arguably have no personal gain from civil rights campaigns, be as much of an activist as many people who identify as part of the social, sexual, racial ... etc group in question.

  6. #56
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    I think the irrational thing about feminism is that there's even a need for it. Things should already be equal. One more irrationality added to the human scorecard.

    Oh, that and I don't really like hair legs either. Militant and fire-breathing I can tolerate.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoshana View Post
    oh fuck yeah male feminists exist.
    Yes - they're called Weenies.

  8. #58
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoshana View Post
    i simply wanted to know if you think that the specific cause that those women were marching for is something legitimate (as it gained a lot of media attention). it's not like it was a dyke march or anything like that -- i think it was women who essentially making the claim that they should not have to worry about what they are wearing when they leave the house. and i'd say that it's a pretty naive sentiment in that of itself. if they were marching for a womans right to wear what she wants in order to feel sexy, that is fine. but that is not the impression i got.
    I think it depends on how 'legitimate' a claim you think anyone has who protests. And when you think people (women in this case) should just call it a day. A lot of protests and acts of civil disobedience are meant, at least in part, as a big FU to the powers that be. They're not meant to be attempts at dialogue or meeting halfway. The idea is "you have an extreme view [oppression] so I will be extreme in response and try to break down some of your hold".

    I think in theory slut walk and things like it are awesome sauce. It is precisely because of people who want way way way the opposite of what they were told was proper and correct that any social change ever occurred.

    Some other views would share your pessimism and say "what's the point" or "aren't they creating a bigger spectacle of themselves for men to ogle?" and "equal rights is one thing but now these women are just being silly in trying to demand something that men themselves can't really change".

    I guess it's kinda like "take back the night" and "take back slutty clothing". They are going to try to reject the male gaze as much as possible and say "I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE I WANT TO".

    on another note -- i'm completely fascinated with america's fear of breasts. i saw a recent clip or something on colbert where a woman was arguing that women should not be allowed to breastfeed in public. and the counter-argument was that women should not have to go to a bathroom or a closet to feed their fucking child (obviously this is where i stand). why are breasts so controversial... especially in terms that they are supposed to serve a function when it comes to the nurturing of offspring. i was in central park, nyc recently with a few friends and my friend wanted to sunbathe topless but was afraid of being judged when it is perfectly legal to do so.
    EXACTLY. That is related to the 'slut walk' and 'slut walk' type of protesting. Breasts in America are way oversexualized. Women's bodies are not our own because society defines what our bodies mean. <--that's a basic premise of feminism and you see it played out pretty baldly when it comes to breast feeding. Breast feeding is eroticized, it's not moms who wanted it or made it that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Thanks for answering! Now, MOAR KWESSHUNZ.

    1) Besides "bitch", "dyke", "whore", "chick", etc., what other terms would you say are sexist? How about "wench", "fair sex", "hysterical" or "frigid"?
    So many, so many... I think a lot of words aren't necessarily hateful words in themselves but get used in hateful ways or get imbued with a lot of negative connotation. I don't think the word 'bitch' itself is sexist but it became imbued with the weight of a lot of sexism and oppression, which is why many women (and some men) try not to use the word. I think it's more about being thoughtful and not acting out of gut reactions that society has taught us that makes language less loaded and more peaceful.

    I remember my male friend told me that his gay friend invited him to a gay club. As he was dancing another man started dancing up on him, and he turned around and punched him in the face. Then he felt horrible and was like "wtf did I do that?" He recognized the homophobia that he had adopted and carried unconsciously within him. Language is like that and the way we use it. There's lots of unconscious ways we carry hateful speech to keep people in line. Like "that's gay". I think it's just important to be thoughtful rather than look for specific words to avoid.

    You're so awesome Viridian. >_<

    2) Can men be feminists? Or just sympathizers?
    Yes, men can be feminists. Though I think there is some debate amongst feminist circles. Not that being a feminist is an essentialist thing and based one being physically female, but the idea of having to experience first hand living as a female and being divorced from male privilege to really even be able to 'see' all the ways ideas about gender affect us.

    I remember I interned at a feminist non profit in Berkeley and it was almost all women except for 1 part time male staffer who worked on the computer system. Then we got a male intern show up at the door. I remember thinking he must be very confident and secure in his politics to show up at the lion's den of hippie feminists. :P

    3) What makes someone a feminist? If someone finds Robin Tunney beautiful, or enjoys a work of fiction that has some sexist undertones, is s/he still a feminist?
    There are gay people who love Eminem (seriously, I've met more than a couple lesbians who seem to want to be him) and black people who vote for Bush (ha, I'm sure I'll get a lot of flamerade for that one) and vegans who wear leather. People are wonderful contradictions and many-splendored things. I had a friend who was a total queer person of color punk activist and she had some of the most douchebag super white male heteronormative sexist blah blah literature in her library. I asked her about it and she just said 'I like it, it's fun to read".

    I think as long as people are sincere in their desires for equality/social justice/"living right" and remain reflective and aware of things that is fine.

    Once you start splitting hairs as to "who is more legit" than others, things get real ugly. You see it all the time in organizing circles. There are many people with sincere intent with just terribly narrow politics or no humanitarian foundation for their work so they make wack decisions. Etc. Etc. Etc. I say if you wanna be feminist, yell it from the mountaintops! And everything else gets figured out down the line.

    I think what makes people feminist is a sincere interest in and desire for social justice in the form of gender equality, a level of consciousness, and willingness to look at the world through a critical gender lens which includes self-reflection. For myself, I'm not 'just a feminist' - for me everything overlaps and I think it is impossible and counter-productive to look at a text or at society purely through a "gender lens" or "race lens" or "economic lens".

    4) What do you think of men who justify their lewd behavior by claiming that they're men and thus slaves to their "inferior" animalistic impulses?
    HA! Ask Peguy! I'm sure he has a nice little YouTube video response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes - they're called Weenies.
    Oh Peguy, you obviously have not met hot straight activist men. Seriously, those mens are studly. You would not believe how many feminist womanizers run in activist circles.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  9. #59
    Senior Member shoshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    "I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE I WANT TO".

    EXACTLY. That is related to the 'slut walk' and 'slut walk' type of protesting. Breasts in America are way oversexualized. Women's bodies are not our own because society defines what our bodies mean. <--that's a basic premise of feminism and you see it played out pretty baldly when it comes to breast feeding. Breast feeding is eroticized, it's not moms who wanted it or made it that way.
    ::bows:: i'm not worthy! ;P

    i love this type of conversation.. i love it so hard! i think i can now empathize with those marching in the slut walk.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    So many, so many... I think a lot of words aren't necessarily hateful words in themselves but get used in hateful ways or get imbued with a lot of negative connotation. I don't think the word 'bitch' itself is sexist but it became imbued with the weight of a lot of sexism and oppression, which is why many women (and some men) try not to use the word. I think it's more about being thoughtful and not acting out of gut reactions that society has taught us that makes language less loaded and more peaceful.

    I remember my male friend told me that his gay friend invited him to a gay club. As he was dancing another man started dancing up on him, and he turned around and punched him in the face. Then he felt horrible and was like "wtf did I do that?" He recognized the homophobia that he had adopted and carried unconsciously within him. Language is like that and the way we use it. There's lots of unconscious ways we carry hateful speech to keep people in line. Like "that's gay". I think it's just important to be thoughtful rather than look for specific words to avoid.
    I understand... That's the reason I asked for examples - I'm not an expert etymologist.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    You're so awesome Viridian. >_<
    Aw shucks, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Yes, men can be feminists. Though I think there is some debate amongst feminist circles. Not that being a feminist is an essentialist thing and based one being physically female, but the idea of having to experience first hand living as a female and being divorced from male privilege to really even be able to 'see' all the ways ideas about gender affect us.

    I remember I interned at a feminist non profit in Berkeley and it was almost all women except for 1 part time male staffer who worked on the computer system. Then we got a male intern show up at the door. I remember thinking he must be very confident and secure in his politics to show up at the lion's den of hippie feminists. :P
    Yes, that's the dilemma... I don't claim to understand their experience - and, to be blunt, I kinda don't want to share it. Oppression sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    There are gay people who love Eminem (seriously, I've met more than a couple lesbians who seem to want to be him) and black people who vote for Bush (ha, I'm sure I'll get a lot of flamerade for that one) and vegans who wear leather. People are wonderful contradictions and many-splendored things. I had a friend who was a total queer person of color punk activist and she had some of the most douchebag super white male heteronormative sexist blah blah literature in her library. I asked her about it and she just said 'I like it, it's fun to read".

    I think as long as people are sincere in their desires for equality/social justice/"living right" and remain reflective and aware of things that is fine.

    Once you start splitting hairs as to "who is more legit" than others, things get real ugly. You see it all the time in organizing circles. There are many people with sincere intent with just terribly narrow politics or no humanitarian foundation for their work so they make wack decisions. Etc. Etc. Etc. I say if you wanna be feminist, yell it from the mountaintops! And everything else gets figured out down the line.

    I think what makes people feminist is a sincere interest in and desire for social justice in the form of gender equality, a level of consciousness, and willingness to look at the world through a critical gender lens which includes self-reflection. For myself, I'm not 'just a feminist' - for me everything overlaps and I think it is impossible and counter-productive to look at a text or at society purely through a "gender lens" or "race lens" or "economic lens".
    Yes, it's just that the bar for "decent human being" is being raised higher with the dawn of recent movements. Am I being ableist if I say someone's idea is "insane"? Am I excluding intersexed people by saying "s/he" or "hir"? Am I trivializing rape by calling it "sexual assault"? Am I a horrible horrible horrible human being?

    Ahem. Woody Allen routine aside, I also think that someone can call me a feminist or not if they feel like it. Who am I to bestow upon myself such a lofty label?

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    HA! Ask Peguy! I'm sure he has a nice little YouTube video response.
    Or I could just go to TV Tropes. (WARNING MAJOR TIME WASTING WEBSITE)

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