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  1. #381
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Both are true. Never denied it.

    The thing is that some people want to believe that intelligence is somewhat 'as inherented as nurtured' which is not true.
    Most of the studies hinting that completly disregard that a child gets their genes from their parents which, in these bad studies, inflates the role of 'nurture'.

    And of course one's social background will influence their ability to be successful, I would never dream of denying that.
    I don't think anyone is claiming that intelligence is inherented as nurtured. Intelligence is something innate. That being said, it does need to be developed and put to some sort of use in the vast majority of cases. The rare cases where highly intelligent individuals rise up from total hardship and become great have an important personality traits that allows them to do it: massive drive, a "failure is a learning experience" mentality, and unwaivering refusal to give up. Those things aren't connected to intelligence, but it can seem like it.

    The point is, having a strong economic support system and access to resources makes it significantly easier to develop ones natural skills. It's not that their natural skills have changed (i.e. intelligence), they have simply channeled them into something useful and productive that leads to success. Without access to resources to do that, it's very difficult to develop intelligence to become successful unless you have a lucky spread of personality traits to go with it.
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  2. #382
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    People who say you're denying the influence of environment when you bring up IQ and heredity are creating a false dichotomy.
    Yeah exactly. I never did deny the influence of environment. However this influence is overstated assuming we're talking about people (mentioned it before) who are normally fed (basically all of the western world) and whose parents arent taking drugs and such. Also as you mention, nature and nurture are not appart.

    a simple example: A kid born with a high iq will be more likely to have parents with high iq. These parents are would have have the intellectual means for upward mobility etc. So these things don't exist in a vacuum.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yeah exactly. I never did deny the influence of environment. However this influence is overstated assuming we're talking about people (mentioned it before) who are normally fed (basically all of the western world) and whose parents arent taking drugs and such.
    What the others are mentioning is mainly access to extra education but these are opportunities, which is something different and again, nobody is really arguing about. However it doesn't have much if any affect on intelligence.

    Opportunity to make use of existing intelligence =/= increasing intelligence
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  4. #384
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I tend to favor truth over lies, and damn lies.


    Well depends on the methodology. The issue with alot of studies is that their methodology is flawed and biased. But it's self evident when reading the actual study (not its conclusions in a pop magazine)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #385
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What the others are mentioning is mainly access to extra education but these are opportunities, which is something different and again, nobody is really arguing about, However it doesn't have much if any affect on intelligence.

    Opportunity to make use of existing intelligence =/= increasing intelligence
    That's why I wish people would stop bringing it up as if it were a counter argument when it's not.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    a simple example: A kid born with a high iq will be more likely to have parents with high iq. These parents are would have have the intellectual means for upward mobility etc. So these things don't exist in a vacuum.
    And these parents are more likely than average to be moving in the higher echelons of society to start with.

    So yes, it's a vicious cycle, and I get why that pisses people off, but what are you supposed to do? This is essentially a zero-sum game where you're punishing people just for being born with more innate intelligence...

  7. #387
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    The issue with alot of studies is that their methodology is flawed and biased. But it's self evident when reading the actual study (not its conclusions in a pop magazine)
    I have a problem when stats are too heavily relied upon. But that's me.

  8. #388
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I have a problem when stats are too heavily relied upon. But that's me.
    Stats are the best way to get reliable data. Otherwise you drown in people's personal stories, which is completely anecdotal and so irrelevant. (ie: of so little relevance that it may as well be irrelevant)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #389
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Stats are the best way to get reliable data.
    My bank account disagrees.

  10. #390
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    And these parents are more likely than average to be moving in the higher echelons of society to start with.

    So yes, it's a vicious cycle, and I get why that pisses people off, but what are you supposed to do? This is essentially a zero-sum game where you're punishing people just for being born with more innate intelligence...
    Well I don't see it as punishing people but it is what it is.
    Denying it is kinda delusional/naive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    My bank account disagrees.
    I wouldn't trust banks if I were you.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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