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  1. #351
    across the universe Olm the Water King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Interesting point. Why should we expect people with superior IQ to show the same emotional makeup as people with 100

    food for thought.

    I'd be interested to see some stats on the factors they use to quantify/qualify that.
    I'm pretty much referring to this:

    The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded

    It makes the claim that

    The probability of entering and remaining in an intellectually elite profession such as Physician, Judge, Professor, Scientist, Corporate Executive, etc. increases with IQ to about 133. It then falls about 1/3 by 140. By 150 IQ the probability has fallen by 97%! In other words, a significant percentage of people with IQs over 140 are being systematically and, most likely inappropriately, excluded from the population that addresses the biggest problems of our time or who are responsible for assuring the efficient operation of social, scientific, political and economic institutions. This benefits neither the excluded group nor society in general. For society, it is a horrendous waste of a very valuable resource. For the high IQ person it is a personal tragedy, commonly resulting in unrealized social, educational and productive potential.
    Later on there's more interesting stuff, including the maladjustment I mentioned. Anyway, the "extremely intelligent" I was talking about aren't even on the OP chart. It's a very small population usually overlooked by analyses that focus on large populations and don't account for *qualitative* differences in thinking after a certain point.

    This is unfortunate considering the impact they have had historically. Those who managed to succeed, that is.

    How many more Newtons or Einsteins would we have if society approached this issue differently?

  2. #352
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olm the Water King View Post
    I'm pretty much referring to this:

    The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded

    It makes the claim that



    Later on there's more interesting stuff, including the maladjustment I mentioned. Anyway, the "extremely intelligent" I was talking about isn't even on the OP chart. It's a very small population usually overlooked by analyses that doesn't account for *qualitative* differences in thinking after a certain point.

    This is unfortunate considering the impact they have had historically. Those who managed to succeed, that is.

    How many more Newtons or Einsteins would we have if society approached this issue differently?
    Ok, that makes alot of sense. I was wondering why most everyone I met in academia were uh, let us say 'not so smart'. (ie: I've rarely met someone smarter than I in fields which are supposed to be comprised of the smartest people, and I'm by no mean some insanely rare type of 'genius' )

    There's a handful of nobel winners and most eminent scientists who are geniunely SMART (by my standards) but most 'good' academics are again by my standards not very impressive. (knowing that their job is essentially to be smart)

    Not to mention my conversations with 'philosophy' graduates which always resulted in my crushing their arguments in mere seconds. It's very underwhelming to my ENTP-want-to-be-intellectually-challenged self.

    I also tend to spot some many 'flaws' at a glance in academic papers I read that I always wonder how the hell they select these people.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #353
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Here's some data for you:

    Income above 150 IQ | Pumpkin Person
    Hypocrites who deny linear IQ income correlation | Pumpkin Person

    His sources are mentioned.

    There's lots of popular sources that say that 'high IQ' doesn't mean anything etc.
    These are most likely to be the same kind of 'feel good' flawed studies (and then 100000 fold repetition of same flawed study) that drive most well-known rape statistics, people who say av. iq for all ethnicities is the same. It's all about making Mr. Average feel superior and about not hurting anyone's feelings, not about the facts.

    One thing of significance though is that the higher the IQ, the less 'average' one is, which can make it more likely to develop mal-adjustments. (ie: by their nature it's harder for them to 'fit in' some learn to others don't - but it stands to reason it's going to be more than the average guy).

    On the other hand, higher intelligence would also lead to better life decisions. So you should see a lot of high iq individuals being healthier and happier than average, but also a significant amount showing maladjustments.

    Now any report of these 'maladjustments' is likely to also get picked up by 'feel good statisticians' to make the average man feel superior.

    And so it goes, in circles.
    I think most people who have wealth either inherited it or banged the right dude for long enough.

    I think that being enormously successful in life has a lot more to do with who your parent are and what kind of social network you're born into than how smart you are or how hard you work. I also think people who come from wealthy backgrounds are also more likely to have higher IQs because IQ is as much a function of nurture as nature.

    TL;DR -- correlation =/= causation.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
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  4. #354
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    I think most people who have wealth either inherited it or banged the right dude for long enough.

    I think that being enormously successful in life has a lot more to do with who your parent are and what kind of social network you're born into than how smart you are or how hard you work. I also think people who come from wealthy backgrounds are also more likely to have higher IQs because IQ is as much a function of nurture as nature.

    TL;DR -- correlation =/= causation.
    IQ is not 'as much a function of nature and nurture. It's mostly genetic excluding some serious malnurishment which simply does not happen in Western societies (and of course assuming the parents aren't drug addicted alcoholics (which is a pleonasm, sure) ).

    People keep mentioning the opposite because they WISH it were true, there is however a huge amount of data indicating otherwise.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE
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  5. #355
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olm the Water King View Post
    I'm pretty much referring to this:

    The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded

    It makes the claim that



    Later on there's more interesting stuff, including the maladjustment I mentioned. Anyway, the "extremely intelligent" I was talking about aren't even on the OP chart. It's a very small population usually overlooked by analyses that focus on large populations and don't account for *qualitative* differences in thinking after a certain point.

    This is unfortunate considering the impact they have had historically. Those who managed to succeed, that is.

    How many more Newtons or Einsteins would we have if society approached this issue differently?
    from your link
    Leta Hollingworth studied profoundly gifted children. She reported them as having IQs of 180+, which was a R16 score. As such, on today's tests this equates to 159+. Her conclusion was that when IQ differences are greater than 30 points, leader/follower relationships will break down or will not form. It establishes an absolute limit to the intellectual gulf between leader and followers. She also concluded that there was an D15IQ 'sweet spot' of best outcomes from 123 to 144.
    That's interesting, I've come to similar conclusions myself at the begining of my career.
    I managed various teams, and managing 'smart' people was always so much easier. The more 'smart' people were on the team I managed the better the results and the more my 'leadership' was recognized and easy to come. With teams of 'average people' I would essentially be seen as the 'smart outside consultant' but not a 'leader'. I had to work hard to learn how to 'lead' such people.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE
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  6. #356
    across the universe Olm the Water King's Avatar
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    By the way, this might be useful:

    IQ Percentile and Rarity Chart

  7. #357
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    IQ is not 'as much a function of nature and nurture. It's mostly genetic excluding some serious malnurishment which simply does not happen in Western societies (and of course assuming the parents aren't drug addicted alcoholics (which is a pleonasm, sure) ).

    People keep mentioning the opposite because they WISH it was true, there is however a huge amount of data indicating otherwise.
    The best predictor of a person's future earning potential is their parent's socioeconomic status. It's not wishful thinking or liberal bias. It's just fact.

    I've enjoyed a lot of success in my life. I'm not so arrogant to assume that the success I've had is as much a function of my individual disposition and abilities as it was the fortune of being born into an affluent family who cultivated those things. I could be exactly who I am now and been born in the ghetto and I would likely not have gotten as far in life.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
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  8. #358
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    The best predictor of a person's future earning potential is their parent's socioeconomic status. It's not wishful thinking or liberal bias. It's just fact.

    I've enjoyed a lot of success in my life. I'm not so arrogant to assume that the success I've had is as much a function of my individual disposition and abilities as it was the fortune of being born into an affluent family who cultivated those things. I could be exactly who I am now and been born in the ghetto and I would likely not have gotten as far in life.
    So... are you saying that the parents don't pass on their genetics to their children?
    interesting
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #359
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    The best predictor of a person's future earning potential is their parent's socioeconomic status.
    Yes, and as we move into a more prosperous society, our psychoclass becomes more important.

    And psychoclass is a function of our child rearing.

    In properous societies the highest form is child rearing is the helping mode of child rearing where the parent helps the child achieve their life goals. And the helping mode of child rearing tends to produce empathic and creative personalities.

    By contrast, the fixation on socioeconomic status is a result of the authoritarian mode of child rearing which produces the controlling personality.

    And interestingly, the controlling personality is a godsend to the chaotic personality.

  10. #360
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    So... are you saying that the parents don't pass on their genetics to their children?
    interesting
    I think that that's a non sequitur. I'm saying that I could have the same IQ as Kant and grow up in the projects and still end up flipping burgers at McDonalds.

    Don't get me wrong--being smart definitely helps. I don't think you get to be Bill Gates without some serious intellectual wherewithal. But I don't know if his intellect was as helpful to his ultimate success as the fact that he had a mother who had connections to the board at IBM.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth
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