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  1. #341
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Not entirely, no. But to my knowledge, MBTI hasn't been found to describe physical differences in the brain, it seemingly hasn't been studied that way.

    ADHD brains do physically/chemically differ from non-ADHD brains. But because MBTI is based on traits/observation, and P traits often overlap with ADHD traits (but J-traits don't overlap much at all with ADHD).

    Basically, we assume that similar physiologies produce similar behaviors. So we simply match ADHD with P.

    There are a million flaws with this I realize, such as correlation aint causation, there are various shades of P/J, Te differs from Fe, blahdyblahdyblah, but it's 4:00am here and I need to go to bed, because I'm obviously wired and need to get my Victoria Secreted ass to bed.

    Damn. I might be ENFP after all.
    LOL. I don't know what you are. Do you go by sircockburn at INTJf?

    Anyway, most research these days supports a model based on physiological neuroplasticity - so even if brains differ chemically and physiologically, that could still be the result of experience and not (or not directly) some kind of genetic or inevitable development. We know for sure that abuse and chronic stress cause certain parts (i forget which, I believe ones involved with emotional regulation) to shrink or 'wilt'.

    As far as personality goes, P is the strongest correlation but there are others. Our impulsiveness, failure to comply with certain social protocols, and difficulty functioning normally in high stimulus situations makes us rate as introverts more often. Of course, the opposite is also possible... but so is the workaholic with ADD who takes on way more than they can possibly accomplish because they don't have the self-confidence to say no, and ends up looking rather J-ish. Of course, there's also the non-MBTI trait of 'neuroticism/emotional stability', which people with ADD tend to score significantly toward the 'neurotic' end of.

    Then, throw in the widely varied coping mechanisms and their far-reaching effects, and you have a ton of diversity.

    How does that relate to 'giftedness'? I don't really know. I explored one idea earlier in this thread (neurological hypersensitivity) but that's all I've got. We do know that a lot of 'gifted' kids act like they have ADD when you put them in a normal classroom. The difference is, supposedly, that if you take them out and put them in a more challenging stream, they'll pick up the slack and start to really perform; whereas if they *really* have ADD, they'll struggle even more to stay on task even if it's something they're otherwise quite capable of. But IME it all depends on the level of stimulation, lol. A very animated and expressive lecturer can teach me the ins and outs of algorithm design or neurobiology, but take the exact same subject - identical slides, even - and read them in a monotone or a clumsy foreign accent, and I'll be falling asleep in minutes no matter how interesting it is.

    I'm looking forward to seeing whether this is true on adderall full-time.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  2. #342
    subterfugee Xann's Avatar
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  3. #343
    across the universe Olm the Water King's Avatar
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    I hear that 40% of people with extremely high IQs are emotionally maladjusted.

  4. #344
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The Gifted and OE

    There are some important things to know about the gifted.

    Gifted can be measured by a very high IQ together with other information.

    The gifted are very, very small in number. So small that it is possible to go through our whole life without meeting a gifted person. The bien pensant tell us we are all gifted but this is simply a beautiful lie.

    The gifted are different than the normal. In particular the gifted are said to be over excitable (OE). Another way of putting it is that the gifted have a high response to stimulae. They have a high intellectual response to stimulae, a high emotional response to stimulae, and a high physical response to stimulae.

    For the proper development of gifted children it is important that they mix with their gifted peers.

    So it seems the gifted might be compared to quicksilver, while we can be compared to molasses.

    To read about giftedness and over excitability just click on Overexcitability and the Gifted « SENG

  5. #345
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olm the Water King View Post
    I hear that 40% of people with extremely high IQs are emotionally maladjusted.
    One might just as well say that the rest of the folks are emotionally maladjusted compared with those 40%.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  6. #346
    across the universe Olm the Water King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    One might just as well say that the rest of the folks are emotionally maladjusted compared with those 40%.
    Well, as for me, I always say that the whole world is maladjusted to me. : - D

    P.S.: Not that I'm extremely intelligent (which would be above 145 or so). Just messing around.

  7. #347
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Oh the average is between 84 to 113? Phew.. I can safely say that I atleast fall within the average level.

    I have done an IQ test only once. I got 128. I told people I got 132 though.

    However, I am willing to consider that the test I took exaggerated the results a bit to boost the test takers' egos.

    As a person who believes and has always been told by my ESTJ father that hard work/consistency/persistence trumps intelligence in one's pursuit of success it really doesn't bother me much if I am simply average. It would bother me however if I am below average.

    Also I know an INTP who got slightly over 150 for the same test (he claimed, I didn't actually see) fail at everything he does, including work life, love life and education. He fails a shit ton of exams he did. It's cruel of me to use him as an example to indicate that IQ means little when it comes to success but he often brags about his intelligence, so.... I guess it's okay.

    However, I also know another INTP who has a very high IQ who easily aces his exams.
    .

  8. #348
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    This thread is the lovechild of my thoughtful nature and bionic's rigid standards for choosing a mate. In the thread entitled Too ugly for a "beautiful people" dating site?, bionic asserted that she would be unwilling to take a lover with an IQ lower than 130. This got me thinking about those qualitative properties that might be associated with having a higher IQ.

    Looking first at some average adult IQs associated with real-life accomplishments:

    [SIZE="1"]
    This graph was adapted from Figure 12 of Hauser, Robert M. 2002. "Meritocracy, cognitive ability, and the sources of occupational success." CDE Working Paper 98-07 (rev). Center for Demography and Ecology, The University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison, Wisconsin. The figure is labelled "Wisconsin Men's Henmon-Nelson IQ Distributions for 1992-94 Occupation Groups with 30 Cases or More" and is found at ]404 Not Found.

    I notice that for the most part all occupations are well represented by individuals with IQs lower than 130. In terms of ability to understand complex materials, succeed in intellectual environments, converse with peers, etc., an individual with an IQ at around 120 should (given sufficient interest and drive) do reasonably well. Furthermore, if one were to look at those correlations with IQ which might be useful in choosing a mate (heath, propensity for criminal behavior, job performance, income, etc.), one would note that such relationships are modeled well by nonlinear (logarithmic) regression; and that although there is correlation between IQ and these variables, such a correlation approaches 0 when one deals exclusively with IQs from the upper limits of above average to genius levels.* This effectively means that increases in IQ after a certain point are not substantially correlated with those quantitative factors which might be useful in mate selection.

    This brings me to the main topic of this thread, which deals with those qualitative aspects of a person which are associated with having a higher IQ. What positive traits might a person gain by those 10, 20, 30 point increases in IQ, once said person is already well above average? Could it be that the mathematics professor with an IQ of 150 has an easier time accomplishing his work objectives than the professor with an IQ of 125? Would the very superior professor accomplish more or be able to devote more time to his spouse than his above average counterpart? Could there be less stress for Mr. Very Superior, which affords him a lifestyle which promotes kindness and warmth?

    I'm curious about how different the experiences would be when dealing with someone with a genius level IQ as opposed to a similarly inclined individual with just a superior IQ. Once a certain level of intellect is reached, what differences might we observe when looking at individuals with markedly different IQs (130 vs. 160 for instance)?

    Also, if anyone has had his/her IQ officially tested, it might be interesting if you'd share it and provide some personal anecdotes about your relationship style, life success, etc.


    *Terman's Classification
    • 164+ Genius or Near Genius
    • 148-164 Very Superior
    • 132-148 Superior
    • 113-132 Above Average
    • 84-113 Average
    • 68-84 Dullness
    • 52-68 Borderline Deficiency
    • Below 52 Definite Feeble-Mindedness
    It's quite simple.

    Look at the size of the study sample.
    Keep in mind some studies discard 'noise' (small unrepresentative samples) - some plumbers have high iqs, some doctors have lowish IQs etc. it's not shown there because it's not the 'general trend' and is discarded as noise. Otherwise jobs would probably have much bigger 'iq ranges' and that graph would become much less meaningful.

    As there are very few people with IQs over 130 (145 is 1/1000 approx) that data will get discarded, so you'd need to find a study that specifically targets high iq individuals.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  9. #349
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Here's some data for you:

    Income above 150 IQ | Pumpkin Person
    Hypocrites who deny linear IQ income correlation | Pumpkin Person

    His sources are mentioned.

    There's lots of popular sources that say that 'high IQ' doesn't mean anything etc.
    These are most likely to be the same kind of 'feel good' flawed studies (and then 100000 fold repetition of same flawed study) that drive most well-known rape statistics, people who say av. iq for all ethnicities is the same. It's all about making Mr. Average feel superior and about not hurting anyone's feelings, not about the facts.

    One thing of significance though is that the higher the IQ, the less 'average' one is, which can make it more likely to develop mal-adjustments. (ie: by their nature it's harder for them to 'fit in' some learn to others don't - but it stands to reason it's going to be more than the average guy).

    On the other hand, higher intelligence would also lead to better life decisions. So you should see a lot of high iq individuals being healthier and happier than average, but also a significant amount showing maladjustments.

    Now any report of these 'maladjustments' is likely to also get picked up by 'feel good statisticians' to make the average man feel superior.

    And so it goes, in circles.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE
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  10. #350
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    One might just as well say that the rest of the folks are emotionally maladjusted compared with those 40%.
    Interesting point. Why should we expect people with superior IQ to show the same emotional makeup as people with 100

    food for thought.

    I'd be interested to see some stats on the factors they use to quantify/qualify that.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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