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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    The same was just said for religion, actually.
    Are you calling atheism a religion? I tend to think that atheism, like religion, expresses too much certainty. But the difference is that the former does not impose questionable restrictions on one's life. I place myself in the don't know, don't care group.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I like to live within the population. I enjoy people.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    It was a sign of the times. For a fairer comparison, what do the most brilliant minds believe now?

    Being an atheist in their profession was rather dangerous anyway, so we don't really know what they truly believed.
    I don't know , what do you believe now? Spill it.

  3. #243
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I think you are advocating faith over rational thought in a roundabout way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    There are significant benefits to it, actually, even from an objective p.o.v. Faith gives access to a community, blame absolution, purpose, and a few other tidy psychological perks that can really make a huge difference to someone who can't get them elsewhere.
    Rational thought is an illusion. Everyone has faith, it's just a matter of what they have faith in. Atheists have faith that there is no such thing as faith, for instance. It takes faith to breathe air, as you have to believe there is air to breathe. You can say, well I know there will be air because there was air before, so it's rational thought and not faith. This is an illusion, however, and would only be possible in a vacuum where time doesn't pass and things don't change. Therefore, due to the changing circumstances of life, the fact that there is no time but the present, and no guarantee that the present will mimic the past or the future, the present, faith is required to do anything. The question is, what do you place your faith in. Ultimately, it is wisest to place your faith in God because God is the creator of anything else one could put faith in.

    From http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1610369

    Faith is actually not some mystical voodoo spiritual feeling. One's faith is the nature of that person's agreement with God. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)" This verse is often misunderstood... with knowledge of God's promise through Jesus Christ, one has an ability to be assured of the hope sought for which produces evidence despite that thing having yet to happen. Let's say you have faith that the Amtrak will arrive on time at 7:05... your faith produces a confidence in that event, and that confidence produces evidence because knowing it will be on time means you'll be sure to be there by 7:05, and sure enough your faith is the reason you'll be riding the train at 7:10. Unlike fallible things we're accustomed to, God is infallible. In fact, God is infallible unto Himself, i.e. we "swear to God", but God swears by Himself, He cannot lie and there is no deception or darkness in Him. This is why Jesus would tell people "your faith has made you well"... He was not saying their mystical voodoo feeling is what cured them, no, God cured them... however, He was informing them that as far as their participation in the matter is concerned, it was their agreement to God's ability which allowed the healing to occur.


    God made the heart for worship by faith... you can deny this but inevitably all anyone can and will do is worship something or someone by faith and attempt to have life through that relation.

  4. #244
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    Nevermind.

  5. #245
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Are you calling atheism a religion?
    No, I'm saying that you basically repeated yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    Rational thought is an illusion. Everyone has faith, it's just a matter of what they have faith in. Atheists have faith that there is no such thing as faith, for instance.

    From http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1610369

    Faith is actually not some mystical voodoo spiritual feeling. One's faith is the nature of that person's agreement with God. "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)" This verse is often misunderstood... with knowledge of God's promise through Jesus Christ, one has an ability to be assured of the hope sought for which produces evidence despite that thing having yet to happen. Let's say you have faith that the Amtrak will arrive on time at 7:05... your faith produces a confidence in that event, and that confidence produces evidence because knowing it will be on time means you'll be sure to be there by 7:05, and sure enough your faith is the reason you'll be riding the train at 7:10. Unlike fallible things we're accustomed to, God is infallible. In fact, God is infallible unto Himself, i.e. we "swear to God", but God swears by Himself, He cannot lie and there is no deception or darkness in Him. This is why Jesus would tell people "your faith has made you well"... He was not saying their mystical voodoo feeling is what cured them, no, God cured them... however, He was informing them that as far as their participation in the matter is concerned, it was their agreement to God's ability which allowed the healing to occur.
    This is the first thing you've said which genuinely doesn't make sense.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  6. #246
    Senior Member Sanctus Iacobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    No, I'm saying that you basically repeated yourself.
    This is the first thing you've said which genuinely doesn't make sense.
    I am not sure how else I can explain this, hmm. A person who believes they live by rational thought believes in an illusion, or an un-reality. Think about all the things you do in a day, you do them by faith in an outcome. Even something like a court proceeding which is determined strictly by tangible evidence and logical deduction produces, at best, a guess, which faith is then placed in. Math is rigorous system that I would say doesn't require faith, but we know math is only a tool and is still performed by a person who lives and operates via faith.

    It is how we are made, in the very heart, to live/operate within time/existence, by means of a source object or being, which consequently we worship for it is the means by which we hope and live by.

  7. #247
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    So what you are saying is that people with religious faith does not live in an illusion?

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Within View Post
    So what you are saying is that people with religious faith does not live in an illusion?
    Religious faith is faith that humans can be good/God by means of human effort, so in that sense this is the greatest illusion of all and also the first ever illusion.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    I am not sure how else I can explain this, hmm.
    No need.

    I am saying that your choice of scripture was not adequately related to this concept (imo).
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    Rational thought is an illusion. Everyone has faith, it's just a matter of what they have faith in. Atheists have faith that there is no such thing as faith, for instance. It takes faith to breathe air, as you have to believe there is air to breathe. You can say, well I know there will be air because there was air before, so it's rational thought and not faith. This is an illusion, however, and would only be possible in a vacuum where time doesn't pass and things don't change. Therefore, due to the changing circumstances of life, the fact that there is no time but the present, and no guarantee that the present will mimic the past or the future, the present, faith is required to do anything. The question is, what do you place your faith in. Ultimately, it is wisest to place your faith in God because God is the creator of anything else one could put faith in.
    Absolute rational thought might be an illusion, or perhaps an impossible theoretical pole, but there are most certainly degrees of rationality in thought: trypanophobia being a prime example of a catalyst for irrational (less rational that other) thoughts. Also, atheists absolutely do not have faith that there is no such thing as faith. Atheists just make the claim that a personal god doesn't exist, and have a strong belief that they are correct which sometimes borders on certainty (misplaced since one cannot disprove the existence of a personal god). You are correct that there are assumptions (faith isn't the appropriate word here) about the future of the world based upon past experiences; however, there is a significant distinction between believing that I will not spontaneously fall to the center of the earth, for instance, versus belief in a particular deity. If any person stopped using knowledge of the past to make decisions about the future, that person's life would fall to shambles, but the same cannot be said of a person without a belief in a god.

    As for your bolded statement, you presuppose the existence of God in an effort to justify a belief in said god, which is a prime example of circular reasoning.



    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    Math is rigorous system that I would say doesn't require faith, but we know math is only a tool and is still performed by a person who lives and operates via faith.
    Actually, at the foundation of mathematics is a belief that the fundamental axioms of the system are true.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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