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  1. #11
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I thought immersion meant that you have to live among the native speakers. Basically interact with them for hours every day.

    I imagine one would have to do both classroom/book and immersion learning, yes?

  2. #12
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Giggly, I just read your last post. Sounds like you might want to find a tandem partner, i.e. a native speaker of your langue of choice who wants to learn English from you. You meet whenever you want and switch languages every fifteen minutes or so. If you have no basis to work with, evening classes might be a good start though. Your tandem partner will allow you to practice in the real world. Also, how about getting some comics, music or subtitled movies in the new language to get a bette feeling for its sound and usage? If you are very physical, try to stick little notes on objects with their name on it or walk throug the supermarket naming what you see, describing what you do. I am mostly improvising here, since I personally prefer to start out very analytically, but I think you know what I mean. I also found chanting very helpful. If you have half a musical ear, giving a certain melody to phrases or words makes them easier to remember...an age old mnemo technique used in many cultures. I still remember two French words that just would not stick to my head 15 (!) years ago until I started singing:" imprudement means careless, paturage the meadow" (in Geman of course)...it worked! Years later I had to memorize a few dozent pages of Spanish vocabulary for an exam, without any context. That's language learning at its worst, but even that can be done. But you should be fine if you find a multisensory real life learning style that you feel comfortable with, because that's all that really matters.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  3. #13
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegorystory View Post
    Right. You can't map the new vocabulary you're learning to your database of English vocabulary. It's an incompetent system. Takes extra time cause you have to go through multiple folders and files to get to where you want to go.

    When I realized this while learning Chinese, I started to approach learning the language as if I were a child learning language for the first time. Instead of mapping words together, I started mapping words and objects/ideas/images/concepts together.

    For instance, you learn the English word for "door" in your new language. Except it isn't the English word for door. It's 门:



    I know it sounds like common sense, but it's amazing how difficult it is. Your brain wants to sneak in there and get you to associate the new words with your old words. Cause it's so ingrained in you. So easy. But it won't help you one bit in becoming fluent. In actually learning the new language.

    And that's why it's harder to the older you get. Young kids have had less time with their native language. It's not AS comfortable as an adult. You just gotta pretend like you're a kid again.
    That's a good approach. Take the colours red and pink. In English, they're classified as different colours. In Chinese, they're nuances of the same colour where in casual conversation, it's not wrong to use the same root characters to describe either.

  4. #14
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    In my experience what you need more than anything is to expose yourself to the other language as much as possible. Use it or lose it.

    All of my primary schooling and the vast majority of my secondary schooling were in French, but it would be a stretch to say I'm still 'fluent'. There was a time when I considered myself fluent. After I graduated high school I had no particular reason to continue speaking and writing in French so I didn't, and now I have long since forgotten most of my vocabulary.

    I don't think it's fair to say a classroom setting is 'useless': it depends on how much effort you put into it. Eventually you do need to apply your skills somewhere outside the classroom otherwise you will forget it like I did. I'm sure 13 years worth of French schooling has not completely gone to waste; I imagine if I moved to Quebec my fluency would quickly return.

  5. #15
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    I completely disagree with your friend. I did spend 6 months in France, but I was already very proficient before I went. Did living in France improve my language skills? Of course. But I definitely do not believe immersion is the only, or to be honest, even the best way (for everyone) to learn a language. For some people it probably is, especially at a young age (14 or under), but as an adult, and a J, I really need to know how a language works. So just living in an environment where the language is spoken woudn't do it for me - I need to be able to study the grammar and construction of the language to really understand it.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  6. #16
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    I completely disagree with your friend. I did spend 6 months in France, but I was already very proficient before I went. Did living in France improve my language skills? Of course. But I definitely do not believe immersion is the only, or to be honest, even the best way (for everyone) to learn a language. For some people it probably is, especially at a young age (14 or under), but as an adult, and a J, I really need to know how a language works. So just living in an environment where the language is spoken woudn't do it for me - I need to be able to study the grammar and construction of the language to really understand it.
    Absolutely.

    I'm not a J, but give me a grammar sheet already!
    I can then start talking to people when I'm a little more confident and have something to work with. Learning like a child is great for children and probably quite a few adults, but as an adult, I prefer a more structural approach.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #17
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Cecilia View Post
    You don't have to go anywhere, there are voice chats in every language possible. You should give it a try.
    It's still not the same though. The stronger the impulse, the easier the learning process. Being a multilingual is such an unfair advantage, lol.

  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    nothing better than computer games. Tho people look strange at you when you point at the bread in the bakery saying "Holding position, drop the bomb!".
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #19
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    nothing better than computer games. Tho people look strange at you when you point at the bread in the bakery saying "Holding position, drop the bomb!".


    Classic!

  10. #20
    L'anima non dimora Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    I completely disagree with your friend. I did spend 6 months in France, but I was already very proficient before I went. Did living in France improve my language skills? Of course. But I definitely do not believe immersion is the only, or to be honest, even the best way (for everyone) to learn a language. For some people it probably is, especially at a young age (14 or under), but as an adult, and a J, I really need to know how a language works. So just living in an environment where the language is spoken woudn't do it for me - I need to be able to study the grammar and construction of the language to really understand it.
    Depends on what use you will give to the new language. If it is just to engage in conversations, immersion is the best choice. Both physical and online.

    Now, if you want to master a foreign language for various contexts (professional, academical), you need to know its grammar to be fluent in all and each one of them. But immersion is still an essential part of the training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    It's still not the same though. The stronger the impulse, the easier the learning process. Being a multilingual is such an unfair advantage, lol.
    Agree with that statement. If you have the will, no matter how, you'll get yourself immersed in the new language without even noticing it. Once there (to the point of thinking in that language), the learning process is much easier.

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
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