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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    How, using Occam's razor, would it make sense if there were a supreme being?
    In my mind (just my mind, please don't read this as me telling you what to believe), thinking that everything was formed out of a random series of coincidences is simply far too complex and roundabout. The simpler answer, as I see it, would be that there is an overarching power that set the universe in motion.

    I'm sure you must be familiar with the whole "watchmaker" analogy... how if you put the components necessary for a watch into a box and shake it about for long enough, you likely will not make a watch, even after billions of years of shaking, but if you give it to a watchmaker, he can have it assembled rather quickly. That's generally how I view the concept. Again, just my personal opinion.
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  2. #42
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    I'm sure you must be familiar with the whole "watchmaker" analogy... how if you put the components necessary for a watch into a box and shake it about for long enough, you likely will not make a watch, even after billions of years of shaking, but if you give it to a watchmaker, he can have it assembled rather quickly. That's generally how I view the concept. Again, just my personal opinion.
    Metaphors are only as good as the accuracy of the comparison being made.

    You should note that there's an actual, significant difference between inert pieces that will NEVER assemble themselves regardless of how often you shake them (and that you'll likely just break by continued jostling), versus components that actually naturally can and do get together to form new ones and/or self-organize, if the circumstances are correct, even if the percentage chance isn't high in the short term.

    You're kinda comparing apples and toenail clippings, so to speak, here.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Metaphors are only as good as the accuracy of the comparison being made.

    You should note that there's an actual, significant difference between inert pieces that will NEVER assemble themselves regardless of how often you shake them (and that you'll likely just break by continued jostling), versus components that actually naturally can and do get together to form new ones and/or self-organize, if the circumstances are correct, even if the percentage chance isn't high in the short term.

    You're kinda comparing apples and toenail clippings, so to speak, here.
    My apologies, it was merely the easiest metaphor that came to mind at short notice.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    In my mind (just my mind, please don't read this as me telling you what to believe), thinking that everything was formed out of a random series of coincidences is simply far too complex and roundabout. The simpler answer, as I see it, would be that there is an overarching power that set the universe in motion.
    Big bang, causality -> everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    I'm sure you must be familiar with the whole "watchmaker" analogy... how if you put the components necessary for a watch into a box and shake it about for long enough, you likely will not make a watch, even after billions of years of shaking, but if you give it to a watchmaker, he can have it assembled rather quickly. That's generally how I view the concept. Again, just my personal opinion.
    You do not know whether the universe actually is a watch, it might just be shaking components. It is a common anthropomorphistic mistake to assume that everything that is has a maker and, likewise, that everything we perceive as made is made.

  5. #45
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    oh my god, guys.. really?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    In my mind (just my mind, please don't read this as me telling you what to believe), thinking that everything was formed out of a random series of coincidences is simply far too complex and roundabout. The simpler answer, as I see it, would be that there is an overarching power that set the universe in motion.
    Jennifer's point is one.

    Another thing I tend to think of when this is brought up is... Yes, how our world/universe is today is the result of all of these 'random coincidences'. The summation of all of them is how we got where we are today, and why the world is what it is. We marvel at it because we know that if any of those things had been different, the world would not be how it is, and we would not exist. BUT, if there had been one or many differences, or if something from the 'very beginning' (a nebulous term as well, esp. if there have been many beginnings and there never was a true beginning) was very different and thus the sequence of everything after altered, then what would have resulted would/could have been an equally marvelous - but perhaps fantastically different - reality than what we have now, today. Rather than us existing, something else perhaps equally complex would exist. And so on. Beings in that different reality (had the 'coincidences' that did happen for us not happened) would marvel at all of the coincidencs that led to theirs, and they would be thinking, oh wow, there must have been something bigger to bring us into existence, because look at all of the things that had to happen for us to exist!! And beings of an infinite number of possibilities based on slight changes in 'how things went down' (all of the little coincidences) would be saying the same thing - because it's easy as the 'End product' to say that and think that.

    btw - I'm not trying to annoy the OP or anything... it's just that I was inspired enough to post this. lol. !! My intention isn't even to debate/argue, this is just the sort of stuff I think about sometimes.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    oh no I don't mind debate, it just gets annoying when people are like "No! You're wrong, I'm right!" No one has proof when it comes to religion, that's why my argument is its a personal choice. And how you come to that conclusion is your business not anyone elses.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #48
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    oh no I don't mind debate, it just gets annoying when people are like "No! You're wrong, I'm right!" No one has proof when it comes to religion, that's why my argument is its a personal choice. And how you come to that conclusion is your business not anyone elses.
    You are free to believe that the plague came because the jews poisoned the wells, but if you claim that it is so, I will object, for whether it is so is not a personal choice and not a matter of opinion or taste.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    It is quite bold of you to suggest that a man who has devoted his whole life to the holy church does not sincerely seek the truth of the teachings of the scripture; which must be what you are saying, because the only alternative is that god does not make himself known to the people in a way one can understand unequivocally.
    Well, I would first disagree with your presumption that the Roman Catholic Church is THE "holy church." "Holy" meaning sanctified, or set apart, and "church" being the called out people of God. Kind of redundant, but I suppose you use "holy" to exclude all other religious groups as being set apart from the world. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but does Catholocism not teach that God speaks to man in ways beyond the scriptures, or what we would refer to as the canon? Just a couple of examples; papal decrees, the apocraphal books inserted after the canon, etc. I only raise that because would that not mean that Mr. Ratzinger seeks the "teachings of scripture" elsewhere, including himself? It would seem that lack of sincerity is not the issue, rather that which he and I are seeking and where we are seeking. I guess my point is that I disagree with your premise that the Catholic Church equals Truth, thus the Pope devoting his whole life to the Catholic Church doesn't really mean a whole lot to me in regards to the understanding of scripture. I respect his spiritual devotion and sincerity, though.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southern_lawyer View Post
    Well, I would first disagree with your presumption that the Roman Catholic Church is THE "holy church." "Holy" meaning sanctified, or set apart, and "church" being the called out people of God. Kind of redundant, but I suppose you use "holy" to exclude all other religious groups as being set apart from the world.
    I am using 'holy' to devaluate the word.

    Quote Originally Posted by southern_lawyer View Post
    I only raise that because would that not mean that Mr. Ratzinger seeks the "teachings of scripture" elsewhere, including himself?
    Be assured that Mr. Ratzinger seeks the teachings of the scripture also in the scripture. Your debate with him is supposed to be about the different understandings of that scripture and its teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by southern_lawyer View Post
    It would seem that lack of sincerity is not the issue, rather that which he and I are seeking and where we are seeking.
    We can narrow it down to the word of the holy book.

    Quote Originally Posted by southern_lawyer View Post
    I guess my point is that I disagree with your premise that the Catholic Church equals Truth, thus the Pope devoting his whole life to the Catholic Church doesn't really mean a whole lot to me in regards to the understanding of scripture. I respect his spiritual devotion and sincerity, though.
    My premise is not that the catholic church equals truth, but that a lifelong devotion to the church equals a sincere quest for religious truth, that is the true understanding of god's word.

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