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  1. #41
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    You depreciated someones opinion based solely on your own values. You are the one trying to use science here my friend, not me.
    "Silly" by your definition, is a measurement, that's science. I am talking about something much much bigger.
    Theology was the queen of the sciences.

    How can you have bigger when everything is equal... including contradictory beliefs???
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #42
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    That's pretty black and white. That doesn't mean they are right. The point is, there is no wrong or right. If you can't grasp that , then yes we are done, I suppose.
    Yes, we are. Why would I argue when truth cannot be gained???

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Maybe if I was a slave, I would definitely agree.

    Since I'm not, I don't know where to start. It's almost bordering on parody. Something worse than a slavish mentality.
    What does slavery have to do with this?
    I'm just stating how things are. Right now the state acts as a moral authority in it's punishment of wrongdoers.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #43
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    only immoral people need religion to guide them in morality. morality based on religion might even be quite immoral in some cases
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  4. #44
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I'm just stating how things are. Right now the state acts as a moral authority in it's punishment of wrongdoers.
    It's not how things are. If you look closely, you'll see a little angel on my shoulder. He told me not to murder. See him? No? :\ Well, either way, I could say that that is how things are too. The state's just in agreement with him. Who knows, perhaps someone in the state has an angel on their shoulder too.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Theology was the queen of the sciences.

    How can you have bigger when everything is equal... including contradictory beliefs???
    Because IQ is measurable but morality is not (except personally). You make what you want of that .

  6. #46
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It's not how things are. If you look closely, you'll see a little angel on my shoulder. He told me not to murder. See him? No? :\ Well, either way, I could say that that is how things are too. The state's just in agreement with him. Who knows, perhaps someone in the state has an angel on their shoulder too.
    I didn't say that the state was the only moral authority, but it is quite plainly the most obvious one.
    Whether they exercise that authority appropriately is another question altogether.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #47
    Oberon
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    All right... let us conduct a little thought experiment. This won't be difficult at all for many of us, because the experiment represents the headspace in which some of us actually live, though for myself it's a bit of a stretch. Okay:

    Imagine a universe without a Creator, in which physical events are governed by random chance. In this random-chance universe, some of the molecules happen to fall into configurations that we would call human beings. Human being A formulates a set of working rules to live by. Human being B doesn't give a shit about A's principles, bashes A's brains out with a rock and takes all A's stuff.

    On what basis could one claim that A's actions were 'right' and B's actions were 'wrong' morally? Or that B was 'right' and A was 'wrong'? The entire A vs. B episode happened as a result of an interaction of particles of matter based on random chance. To my way of thinking, in this universe there is no more "moral significance" to B's murder of A than there is to the sprouting of a plant, or the eruption of a volcano.

    In other words, I don't see how there can be moral agents in a purely material world.

    I think this is what's at the heart of Arclight's premise (though, Arc, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

    Thoughts?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    All right... let us conduct a little thought experiment. This won't be difficult at all for many of us, because the experiment represents the headspace in which some of us actually live, though for myself it's a bit of a stretch. Okay:

    Imagine a universe without a Creator, in which physical events are governed by random chance. In this random-chance universe, some of the molecules happen to fall into configurations that we would call human beings. Human being A formulates a set of working rules to live by. Human being B doesn't give a shit about A's principles, bashes A's brains out with a rock and takes all A's stuff.

    On what basis could one claim that A's actions were 'right' and B's actions were 'wrong' morally? Or that B was 'right' and A was 'wrong'? The entire A vs. B episode happened as a result of an interaction of particles of matter based on random chance. To my way of thinking, in this universe there is no more "moral significance" to B's murder of A than there is to the sprouting of a plant, or the eruption of a volcano.

    In other words, I don't see how there can be moral agents in a purely material world.

    I think this is what's at the heart of Arclight's premise (though, Arc, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

    Thoughts?
    Easy. Humans decide what is right and what is wrong. We can use those big brains to make decisions. We can even make a series of decisions so functional, that they become normalized and codified for other humans to easily reach the same functional level. It's like a product, our morals, we have to distribute them to others. And why shouldn't we? Some people spend their entire lives philosophizing. Is their work not valid?

  9. #49
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Easy. Humans decide what is right and what is wrong. We can use those big brains to make decisions. We can even make a series of decisions so functional, that they become normalized and codified for other humans to easily reach the same functional level. It's like a product, our morals, we have to distribute them to others. And why shouldn't we? Some people spend their entire lives philosophizing. Is their work not valid?
    It's the random meandering of an accidental aggregation of particles. Why should I care?

  10. #50
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    It's the random meandering of an accidental aggregation of particles. Why should I care?
    Because you do care. You're here discussing it. You're asking particles a question about particles. Are some particles more trustworthy than others?

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