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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I agree that you don't need religion to have morals.

    I think that it helps some people who don't come by morality easily to find it... but I think that many, if not most, people would choose to be moral even without religion. I do, for instance.

    What you really need is a philosophy. I think that philosophy should replace religion.
    In some ways, aren't religion and philosophy interchangeable?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I was wondering when the Catholic Triumvirate would arrive to set yal on the course to orthodoxy.
    C'mon... I'm playing nice!

  3. #23
    Member ultimawepun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What you really need is a philosophy. I think that philosophy should replace religion.
    What we really need is to teach people to always question their beliefs —theism, atheism, everything.

  4. #24
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I was wondering when the Catholic Triumvirate would arrive to set yal on the course to orthodoxy.
    I'm not Catholic, but I am Texan - and I command thee to spell that as "y'all".

  5. #25
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    In some ways, aren't religion and philosophy interchangeable?
    That's my point. I think that philosophy is a superior way of living one's life, compared to religion. The reason is because philosophy demands that you think for yourself about why it's true, whereas religion simply demands that you accept that something is true without questioning it. A philosophy is consistent with itself, and still makes sense when you analyze it... a religion does not.

    I respect the right of people to be religious because their family was religious, or it brings them some kind of comfort, as long as they're willing to admit that their faith is not rational. People who try to pretend that their faith is logical, are people who I think have corrupt intellectual judgment.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm not Catholic, but I am Texan - and I command thee to spell that as "y'all".
    lol! Ok, I'll reform. Pax vobiscum.

  7. #27
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Also, I think people can form ethics rationally, realizing that it makes more logical sense to respect other people's individuality and livelihood, that a well-functioning working society requires people to basically treat others as they'd want to be treated themselves.
    Absolutely; I've talked about this with my INTJ best friend a number of times.

    There are good logical indicators, for example, that reducing poverty reduces crime, etc. which is good for everyone. One of my INTP friends is a philosopher and he basically can give completely rational reasons which mirror all of my internal Fi morals...it absolutely amazes me how we've basically come to the same conclusions, except mine are wholly Fi with some Te support, and he can explain the same ethics, basically, in a more convincing academic manner with Ti.
    That's a good explanation.

    @ bolded: That has been my experience with many of my NF friends as well. It would be easy for one to mistake me for an NF if I didn't explain to that person exactly how I came to my conclusions.

    For your reference, some of my NF-esque values/beliefs/"conclusions" include:

    Strive to treat everyone with respect and kindness.
    Assume that the other person is trying to do the best thing (unless his/her personal history tells me otherwise).
    See good in others.
    The cliche: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
    Always forgive and do not seek revenge/retribution.
    etc.

    Not only that, but I'd also like to throw in here that a person can be spiritual without being religious, thereby deriving their morals from Fe and an exterior source, but without being religious.
    I can relate to this.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's my point. I think that philosophy is a superior way of living one's life, compared to religion. The reason is because philosophy demands that you think for yourself about why it's true, whereas religion simply demands that you accept that something is true without questioning it. A philosophy is consistent with itself, and still makes sense when you analyze it... a religion does not.

    I respect the right of people to be religious because their family was religious, or it brings them some kind of comfort, as long as they're willing to admit that their faith is not rational. People who try to pretend that their faith is logical, are people who I think have corrupt intellectual judgment.
    OH My!! I had this conversation with someone last night. You speak very eloquently and seem to articulate some of my thoughts, sometimes, with such grace.
    I wont say philosophy is "better" because that would be akin to hurting her beliefs. But what you describe provides a valid alternative to religion.
    But to me it's still a religious concept, just as religion is still a philosphical concept.
    I guess I am saying, Theology is really just a school of philosophy, no?

  9. #29
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's my point. I think that philosophy is a superior way of living one's life, compared to religion. The reason is because philosophy demands that you think for yourself about why it's true, whereas religion simply demands that you accept that something is true without questioning it. A philosophy is consistent with itself, and still makes sense when you analyze it... a religion does not.

    I respect the right of people to be religious because their family was religious, or it brings them some kind of comfort, as long as they're willing to admit that their faith is not rational. People who try to pretend that their faith is logical, are people who I think have corrupt intellectual judgment.
    Aren't there just as many people who subscribe to philosophies unthinkingly?
    How many disenchanted criminal youths in our inner-cities are unthinkingly nihilists living life with no hope and no meaning?

    This is a silly way to differentiate philosophy from religion.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Aren't there just as many people who subscribe to philosophies unthinkingly?
    How many disenchanted criminal youths in our inner-cities are unthinkingly nihilists living life with no hope and no meaning?

    This is a silly way to differentiate philosophy from religion.
    Why silly? This is a discussion about morality, there is nothing "scientific" going on in this thread.

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