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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Thanks for proving our case. That's the same kind of bullshit that I had to deal with growing up, or having people look at me as if I had two heads and/or dismiss me when I would say things that I couldn't tangibly "prove" to them.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Thanks for proving our case. That's the same kind of bullshit that I had to deal with growing up, or having people look at me as if I had two heads and/or dismiss me when I would say things that I couldn't tangibly "prove" to them.
    It's so sad that we live in a world where no one will believe you unless you have proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Just because you don't believe in it doesn't make it less real.
    You believe that you are ethereal because you are N?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Once upon a time people also thought the world was flat and that being cold or possessed by demons made you sick.
    Do you believe those things?
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Well, I don't think it's "crap," I think it creates undue burden and real problems for people -- but I do agree that we can't control other people's behavior, and our lives are our own, by which to succeed or fail. At the end of my life, only I'm responsible for my own happiness and level of success I've found.

    So, personally, I did the hard work, I invested in my life, I went to therapy and worked through my most intense baggage, I forced myself to engage my family whether or not I felt it was fair overall, and I would guess in some ways I look successful and definitely am empowered far more in life than I was when I was half my age.
    I apologize for discounting the need in others. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. In many ways, I struggle with the same things but I am hesitant to chalk it up to intuitiveness. It was strange once I stopped framing myself quite so much as I am different because I am N, my life improved. MBTI seems freeing but somewhat restrictive at the same time.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think a lot of it depends upon context. I grew up as a fundamentalist (in a very SJ denomination) in a medium-sized (being generous) Texas town. It was a very conservative environment dominated by conservative, anti-intellectual, down-to-earth people. My dad was ESTJ, and he fit in well with the church I went to. As an INFP, I felt like I was in a foreign environment, and I grew up feeling defective in many ways. I was too emotional, too sensitive, too scattered, too random, too abstract, too bookish and just too weird in general.

    I remember sitting in church thinking I could see how evolution (pronounced "EVILution" at my church) could work, and that it wasn't necessarily in conflict with the Bible... and how the days in the story of creation in Genesis weren't necessary 24 hour days. I couldn't NOT see alternative perspectives, but couldn't understand how the people around me couldn't see my own. It's very isolating to feel judged as defective while being able to see the perspectives and strengths of those who judge you as such.

    I like Jennifer's term of "changeling child." I used to have dreams when I was young (the sleeping kind) about my "real" parents coming for me... that's common among those who don't feel accepted during childhood.

    Now I work with various SJs at work who are awesome and with whom I get along great. We appreciate one another's strengths, and I don't find their strengths threatening. That doesn't mean I don't sometimes feel insecure about my insufficient attention to detail (now only an issue on rare occasion) or my inability to schedule things in a timely fashion (still on ongoing concern, now and then). I suffer from feeling inadequate because my upbringing, but that's mostly a hold-over from my childhood, rather than judgements I'm getting today.

    So, being the changeling child is tough... and I'm sure it can be just as tough for a sensor in a sea of intuitives. I think intuitives have it easier now than when I was young... but that doesn't mean some don't feel invalidated in their families and communities.

    Some people are given a tough lot, and some just take things hard (I often suspect I'm in the latter group). I'm sure not going to argue that I had it worse than other people. Still, all of us have areas in which we feel shamed and inadequate... and some of us found awareness of type a helpful counterbalance in some of those areas. I don't think blaming other types is helpful, but reclaiming differences as something other than defects can be healing.
    So you think only an N in your situation would have felt similarly disenfranchised?
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    From my POV (and I'm not an N)... First off I want to clarify though, that 'unwelcome' may not be the right word (though I used it in the post you quoted, I know). This may just be rephrasing the OP, but... N skills are disvalued on average, while SJ (and S and J separately) skills are seen as the benchmark for competence and intelligence. This is because there are more Ss. As a common type walks around they see more people who share their skillset and thought process. Over time this becomes the "normal" skillset and all else is disregarded.
    Yes. And you have to "deliver" easily quantifiable results, or at best you are humored and at worst you're the first casualty when energy/resources have to be cut back.

    Strangely enough, I can't seem to get specific, but I can see the undertones of what is going on which is why I wrote the OP.
    And there you go. That's why you're more sensitive to "N" concerns. Because it's all about big picture ambiance and undertones/implications that don't get a lot of traction in tangible society. It's like seeing that the car is likely to go over the cliff if things don't change, but everyone in the vehicle is chatting comfortably and seems unperturbed as they drive ahead until one can somehow dig up tangible signs that would support one's case; otherwise, it often seems like the best thing to do is just get out of the vehicle.


    For the most part, you'd have to be an N to see it though. People in general are interested in maintaining any advantage - earned, justified, or otherwise. So why would an S admit the way the world is set up gives them an unfair advantage. NEVER! That's why the OP hurt to write, for me. And took me so long to realize. I wish it weren't the case, then I could continue to take benefits I have, for granted.
    I think it's good for each of us to have our eyes opened in ways that challenge our preconceptions and help us correct inequities we might have been supportive of (it's happened to me too, and even this thread challenged me)... but don't beat yourself up over it, because I think your openness to see that sort of thing and then the choice to engage it rather than hiding is what makes someone admirable. We're all naturally blind, which I don't see as bad (but just flawed); what's bad is if we realize we're blind but choose to keep exploiting the system for our own benefit.


    Perhaps every third line they say to one of us being misunderstood? Words mean different things to me compared to my N family members and friends. Perhaps not being in the moment enough in lab sessions (I've had a friend complain about this - and I thought I was bad). You have 4 hours to finish a 5 hour task. Do you think it helps to space out? Of course not.
    Yup. No time to lose, especially in a downturned economy where companies are looking to cut cut cut.
    And it's pretty clearly documented how American learning institutions used to be very SJ (authoritarian, box-driven, disciplined, orderly) in approach until maybe the 70's/80's, where I think a lot of NF concerns finally began to acquire a voice. A lot of the fighting we have about education nowadays seems to be in part because the educational institution has gotten "fuzzier" and far less boxy... which in some cases is a good thing but also leads to new problems, because lack of quantitative detail and structure CAN lead to students who don't have command over important knowledge.

    The N's who could handle that structure excelled in school and could use knowledge as a pathway to commercial/career success, at least. But the structure could be a bitch at times to navigate.


    Yes, and not only that, tangible results...right? Please correct me if I'm wrong, of course. But IME Ss want tangible results and not just speculation/ideation/exploration. On average. The dreamer with great words and even better ideas is deemed worthless because they don't produce results. It must be so dehumanizing.
    That was exactly my experience with my S dominated family and my S dominated religious environment... and a lot of cynicism toward those who could not provide results and/or quantifiable evidence. I understand my situation was more severe, but maybe that just frames all of it even better; my environment was predominately S, not N, whereas there's more of a mix in modern western culture, and so it really explains why I spent the bulk of my childhood alone exploring (either the landscape, since I grew up in a very rural area, or visiting the library/reading constantly). Dealing with people just seemed to undermine my self-confidence, because they couldn't mirror back at me valid aspects of my own personality. All my family cared about was good grades and getting a good job; they didn't really care about "understanding things." Good grades and a good job are important, but I felt like a whole bigger aspect of myself was not even visible to them even when I tried to share it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It's so sad that we live in a world where no one will believe you unless you have proof.
    I know, I know.

    And you know how I am: I have a reputation for never making sense.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #86
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    An iNtuitive is no more disadvantaged by society than a woman is.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    An iNtuitive is no more disadvantaged by society than a woman is.
    I agree!!! Wait...

  8. #88
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    So you think only an N in your situation would have felt disenfranchised?
    No idea... someone else might have felt disenfranchised about something else. I specifically said that I suspected that I was someone who took things hard (rather than being given a particularly tough lot). Growing up a fundamentalist and turning out to be a gay INFP seemed challenging to me at the time. Certainly areas where I felt invalidated are areas that matched Ne and Fi descriptions... but I can't know how someone else would have felt invalidated. We all feel invalidated somewhere.

    I don't think it's unfair to say that certain subcultures value qualities that are type influenced. Still, I don't think there's any benefit in fighting over "who had it worse." I took it hard, and that's about all I can say for sure.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It's so sad that we live in a world where no one will believe you unless you have proof.



    You believe that you are ethereal because you are N?



    Do you believe those things?
    Well I'm presuming Sensors thought the world was flat cuz they saw it was flat, and believed that cold made them sick because they could feel the cold.

    Ns discovered gravity and germs, bro.

    But my point is, "I'll believe it when I see it" tends to be a Sensing Thinking trait. It's not unusual for an ISTP or ISTJ to have your attitude, and I've noticed this repeatedly on-line in regards to this subject.

    You seem to really hate Intuitives, quite frankly.

  10. #90
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well I'm presuming Sensors thought the world was flat cuz they saw it was flat, and believed that cold made them sick because they could feel the cold.

    Ns discovered gravity and germs, bro.

    But my point is, "I'll believe it when I see it" tends to be a Sensing Thinking trait. It's not unusual for an ISTP or ISTJ to have your attitude, and I've noticed this repeatedly on-line in regards to this subject.

    You seem to really hate Intuitives, quite frankly.
    No, I just hate idiots.
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