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  1. #71
    Ginkgo
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  2. #72
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    The perception of a problem is the problem.

  3. #73
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    So, we have the following:

    1. Ns are potentially more disadvantaged in society than Ss because the necessity of survival renders their strengths less valuable.
    2. Ns are potentially more disadvantaged in society than Ss because of the oppression of traditions and rule-following.
    3. Ns are more disadvantaged in society than Ss because their ethereality is not valued.
    I agree with you but as a N, I think it's crap to think this way. I used to fall into the trap but for me, I realized that I had (and sill have) a lot of emotional baggage, among other things that could account for my disconnect with others and I used my Nness as a crutch.

  4. #74
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I agree with you but as a N, I think it's crap to think this way. I used to fall into the trap but for me, I realized that I had (and sill have) a lot of emotional baggage, among other things that could account for my disconnect with others and I used my Nness as a crutch.
    You know I don't really believe in the ethereality of Ns, right?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #75
    All Natural! All Good!
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    ^ It's certainly more convenient that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I'm legitimately curious now; in what specific ways are Ns more unwelcome in this world than anyone else?
    From my POV (and I'm not an N)... First off I want to clarify though, that 'unwelcome' may not be the right word (though I used it in the post you quoted, I know). This may just be rephrasing the OP, but... N skills are disvalued on average, while SJ (and S and J separately) skills are seen as the benchmark for competence and intelligence. This is because there are more Ss. As a common type walks around they see more people who share their skillset and thought process. Over time this becomes the "normal" skillset and all else is disregarded.

    Strangely enough, I can't seem to get specific, but I can see the undertones of what is going on which is why I wrote the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It depends probably on who your parents were, what class you are (I think working class favors S strongly strongly strongly because of the emphasis on necessity, making N talents seem 'frivolous' or 'unnecessary' to lower-class people), and blah blah blah. The school system is incredibly SJ. The military is SJ. There is a leaning toward Sensor preferences in the world, there just are.
    For the most part, you'd have to be an N to see it though. People in general are interested in maintaining any advantage - earned, justified, or otherwise. So why would an S admit the way the world is set up gives them an unfair advantage. NEVER! That's why the OP hurt to write, for me. And took me so long to realize. I wish it weren't the case, then I could continue to take benefits I have, for granted.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I wonder this too. I hear a lot of talk, on this forum, of not fitting in to a Sensor world. But I never hear any examples.

    Also, I just don't get it, in general. Seems like all types have a place in society. I have a ton of N friends (far more than S friends) and I don't think any of them would say that they are unwelcome because of their personalities. (And if they are, it's not because of being an N - it's because of social awkwardness, or geeky interests, or something else unrelated to type.)
    Perhaps every third line they say to one of us being misunderstood? Words mean different things to me compared to my N family members and friends. Perhaps not being in the moment enough in lab sessions (I've had a friend complain about this - and I thought I was bad). You have 4 hours to finish a 5 hour task. Do you think it helps to space out? Of course not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    having interests that were tangibly rational to them
    Yes, and not only that, tangible results...right? Please correct me if I'm wrong, of course. But IME Ss want tangible results and not just speculation/ideation/exploration. On average. The dreamer with great words and even better ideas is deemed worthless because they don't produce results. It must be so dehumanizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    What a crock.
    Care to explain why? Keeping in mind that as an ISFP I'm not justifying any feelings that I'm a "special snowflake" but rather, trying to overcome my own biases.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


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  6. #76
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You know I don't really believe in the ethereality of Ns, right?
    I didn't say you did and I don't either. I agreed with you in the sense that those are some of the common complaints and I didn't assume that that you believed in them (but just using it more as an illustration).

    EDIT: Like I said, in the real world, this stuff doesn't really matter. It's just what it is. Most of my psychology professors would never take me seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I agree with you but as a N, I think it's crap to think this way. I used to fall into the trap but for me, I realized that I had (and sill have) a lot of emotional baggage, among other things that could account for my disconnect with others and I used my Nness as a crutch.
    Well, there are different kinds of disconnects. Like me and my ESFJ ex could mentally/emotionally connect in conversation just as well as I could with my ENFJ female best friend. We could talk for hours. For years we were capable of this. Even when we broke up and started talking again as friends or *whatever* we still had things to talk about because of common past and shared interests, similar sense of humor, etc. HOWEVER, at a certain place we lost each other...meaning if I got too much into Ne speculation or analysis he was like "heh heh ...okay...enough of that."

    So then I call my bff or come on-line and talk to other Ns...but like, even if I can sit and argue with an NT all day long in an intellectual manner that feels comfortable to me, there's still some sense of them being different from me with their extreme rationality and eventually the emotional disconnect becomes PAINFULLY evident.

    So while I need an outlet to be an N, I'm not so sure I could have a close romantic relationship with an NT. Like, seriously, I'm very doubtful.

    I mean, like, if I chat with an ISFJ and there's a sense of connection and continuity, that's great, even if that person doesn't like theory as much as I do and tires of it more quickly, I'm like okay....I'll just go write or read or argue with someone else.

    I don't think I need an N to feel "understood at my core." I think I need an F, generally. Though another N is going to match my interest in theory, that's not a soul-level connection, or really "getting someone."

    Then again, I will admit that several of my close IRL female friends are NFs like I am....and I do feel a certain kind of understanding with them on-line...but not always even then. There are other NFs who totally lose me. I'm just like...mmkay.

    Type is more than N/S...and it's easier to recognize I think if you study function theory, too. Functions make a hell of a lot of difference than the four dichotomies.

  8. #78
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You know I don't really believe in the ethereality of Ns, right?
    Thanks for proving our case. That's the same kind of bullshit that I had to deal with growing up, or having people look at me as if I had two heads and/or dismiss me when I would say things that I couldn't tangibly "prove" to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh
    I agree with you but as a N, I think it's crap to think this way. I used to fall into the trap but for me, I realized that I had (and sill have) a lot of emotional baggage, among other things that could account for my disconnect with others and I used my Nness as a crutch.
    Well, I don't think it's "crap," I think it creates undue burden and real problems for people -- but I do agree that we can't control other people's behavior, and our lives are our own, by which to succeed or fail. At the end of my life, only I'm responsible for my own happiness and level of success I've found.

    So, personally, I did the hard work, I invested in my life, I went to therapy and worked through my most intense baggage, I forced myself to engage my family whether or not I felt it was fair overall, and I would guess in some ways I look successful and definitely am empowered far more in life than I was when I was half my age.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    You know I don't really believe in the ethereality of Ns, right?
    Just because you don't believe in it doesn't make it less real.

    Once upon a time people also thought the world was flat and that being cold or possessed by demons made you sick.

  10. #80
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I wonder this too. I hear a lot of talk, on this forum, of not fitting in to a Sensor world. But I never hear any examples.

    Also, I just don't get it, in general. Seems like all types have a place in society. I have a ton of N friends (far more than S friends) and I don't think any of them would say that they are unwelcome because of their personalities. (And if they are, it's not because of being an N - it's because of social awkwardness, or geeky interests, or something else unrelated to type.)
    I think a lot of it depends upon context. I grew up as a fundamentalist (in a very SJ denomination) in a medium-sized (being generous) Texas town. It was a very conservative environment dominated by conservative, anti-intellectual, down-to-earth people. My dad was ESTJ, and he fit in well with the church I went to. As an INFP, I felt like I was in a foreign environment, and I grew up feeling defective in many ways. I was too emotional, too sensitive, too scattered, too random, too abstract, too bookish and just too weird in general.

    I remember sitting in church thinking I could see how evolution (pronounced "EVILution" at my church) could work, and that it wasn't necessarily in conflict with the Bible... and how the days in the story of creation in Genesis weren't necessary 24 hour days. I couldn't NOT see alternative perspectives, but couldn't understand how the people around me couldn't see my own. It's very isolating to feel judged as defective while being able to see the perspectives and strengths of those who judge you as such.

    I like Jennifer's term of "changeling child." I used to have dreams when I was young (the sleeping kind) about my "real" parents coming for me... that's common among those who don't feel accepted during childhood.

    Now I work with various SJs at work who are awesome and with whom I get along great. We appreciate one another's strengths, and I don't find their strengths threatening. That doesn't mean I don't sometimes feel insecure about my insufficient attention to detail (now only an issue on rare occasion) or my inability to schedule things in a timely fashion (still on ongoing concern, now and then). I suffer from feeling inadequate because my upbringing, but that's mostly a hold-over from my childhood, rather than judgements I'm getting today.

    So, being the changeling child is tough... and I'm sure it can be just as tough for a sensor in a sea of intuitives. I think intuitives have it easier now than when I was young... but that doesn't mean some don't feel invalidated in their families and communities.

    Some people are given a tough lot, and some just take things hard (I often suspect I'm in the latter group). I'm sure not going to argue that I had it worse than other people. Still, all of us have areas in which we feel shamed and inadequate... and some of us found awareness of type a helpful counterbalance in some of those areas. I don't think blaming other types is helpful, but reclaiming differences as something other than defects can be healing.

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