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  1. #51
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I think that much of the 'N'-bias comes from the difficulty in communication, the lack of S's in general, the difference in interests and the fact that you automatically gravitate towards your own comfort level, meaning that more N's will gravitate towards N-stuff, which leaves S's feeling left out. Understandable. And it fosters that bias that 'these topics' are more important to discuss (leading towards the feeling that if you don't find these topics important you're not important/smart/with the program), because they're favoured by the group culture here, which of course is due to the N majority


    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    "Why I no longer complain about the S bias" -> cause I developed a chemical agent to rid the Ns from the face of the planet !
    I thought more along the lines of "because I've decided to become one of the Ns"

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Please. The idea that most of the Ns on this forum are actually Ns is nothing but group delusion. The reason there is N bias is because the differences in the quality of descriptions between Ss and Ns causes people to identify with the more "awesome" ones. And don't pretend like there's not a difference. The INTP description, for instance, makes them sound like they're all brilliant scientists or philosophers, while the ISTP description makes them sound like a car mechanic with a beer gut. And going by the amount of gloating that people around here engage in about the virtues of their type (everyone here is apparently a tortured dreamer, genius, or idealist that just can't fit into this mundane world), it's not far-fetched to think that people probably identify more with the virtues than the actual types.
    Do you really think that people who obsess about typology enough to regularly participate on a forum about it are going to be that clueless about the S/N divide?

    And since when is seeing oneself as a tortured anything going to be seen as virtuous?


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is from Keirsey. The difference is clear; ISTPs play with tools and boats and cars, while INTPs have A Beautiful Mind. I could find more, but do I have to?
    The problem here is that if you don't like the stereotype method, Keirsey isn't the way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    ESTP

    ENTP

    How about these ones from TypeLogic? Not only is there a huge difference in length, depth, breadth, and specificity, but the language used in the ESTP description is relatively neutral while the ENTP is called "clever," "funny," "innovative," "ingenious," "entertaining," and "incisive."
    The TypeLogic descriptions are very uneven in depth, for the S and N types.

    This is why it is often important to look at test results, at least two different sets of descriptions, and cognitive functions, to get a good sense of what one's type is, at first.

    The only descriptions that are almost always good are those for the INxx's

    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    I think this is true. I showed descriptions to a few SFJs in my life after they tested as SFJ and they thought the descriptions were flattering. I couldn't believe it. So it seems like a bit of, to SJs, the SJ descriptions are not that bad. Some of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    However, the problem is twofold. Keirsey's descriptions and similar ones are the most popular, AND the communities that have been established all have this bias among the members as a result. I am not certain precisely how much mistyping this bias has resulted in, although I'm sure it has resulted in some.

    I think that in Keirsey's descriptions, and in most people's minds, Sensors are underestimated in their potential to develop N, and Intuitives are overestimated in their potential to develop S. Ns are usually thought of as having most of the strengths of S, perhaps losing a few minor ones, but with lots of other abilities that make up for what they lose. Sensors are thought of as more limited in scope and capacity.

    I believe, however, that the bias is wholly unconscious, and reflects the Intuitive preferences of many authors who write about type. I think that it may be important to get more Sensors involved in re-writing their own descriptions, just to ensure that any bias that may exist is removed. I believe that the process, if effective at all, would still require many years to remove the bias.


    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Socionics tries to stay as true to the original Jungian functions as possible, while MBTI takes a bit more creative license and pushes more towards dichotomies. Keirsey takes even more than MBTI, and focuses only on dichotomies, throwing out function theory completely. The disadvantage is that Socionics is less "fluid," and thus more difficult to apply to people.

    Honestly, I think 90% of the problem would be solved if we could stamp out Keirsey's influence on the discourse. His descriptions seem to be the ones causing most of these misconceptions.

    Actually, I do think that Ns could write good S descriptions, but they would have to be Ns who were fairly comfortable with their own S function, so that they wouldn't have all the negativity of the shadow coming into play. Most Ns (myself included) aren't going to be that mature, however... so it's much more likely that an S would write better S descriptions.
    Yes, in order for this to go anywhere, it is important to see that socionics, MBTI, and Keirsey's types/temperaments, are different systems. They are all valid, but as different systems for different ways of defining the types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    The problem with many SJ descriptions is that they're too acclimated to *particular mainstream manifestations of Si, especially which were more common in our culture in the past*...what this means is that SJs raised in a very old-fashioned, mainstream conservative American household as fundamentalist Christians might still look at the SJ descriptions and say, "why yes! that's kind of like me!"

    Unfortunately, for all of the other SJs who were raised by atheists or liberals or in more progressive cities or in extreme cases in crackhouses (trust me, I do have a point here) they're like "WHAT. THE. FUCK. IS. THIS."

    Keirsey (and even some MBTI) descriptions are so divorced from what Si actually is that they get it all wrong for more and more young people, or people who were raised in less "traditional" or non-religious environments. They also fail to take into account the information age, this time of mass communication we live in, where people - including SJs - are more more exposed to diversity, meaning that today's 20 or 25 year old SJ is going to have a completely different Si reference, no matter who his or her parents or neighborhood happened to be, than a 50 or 60 year old SJ who was raised in a very sheltered and more limited environment.
    Very interesting point here... I have been wondering lately about how to type young SJs. I think the current descriptions aren't going to go far.

  2. #52
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    considering the number of intuitives on the internet, vs. sensors.
    There are plenty of Sensors on the Internet... don't you think there are Sensors on Facebook and such?

  3. #53
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    There are plenty of Sensors on the Internet... don't you think there are Sensors on Facebook and such?
    Sorry - bad phrasing! I meant, sensors and intuitives on the Internet who are interested enough in MBTI to even consider writing wiki articles.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    Thanks!

    Also to Wolfy for that thread he linked earlier.




    You're right, of course. We start to run into problems when the descriptions deviate too far from what Si/Je (Je/Si) axis really is. This is one of the reasons I really, really don't like Keirsey. He stereotypes and TOTALLY ignores the cognitive functions! And his books are really outdated, the SJs descriptions in there are exactly like what you said above, with the conservative upbringing etc.

    But yes I mentioned SFJs that relate to their "traditional" descriptions. The ISFJ I know well was raised by two atheists, but he became religious. He is 22. We live in Toronto, Canada...I'd say this is a pretty liberal city. I still agree though that many people would not relate to SJ descriptions. SJs can be very open-minded no doubt, my ISFJ is too, but he likes being "traditional". I think the SJs that relate to this would prefer to keep doing what has already been done by someone (doesn't have to be parents, themselves, or anyone specific). This ISFJ struggled with wanting to believe in god but not finding a religion that fit his values. I told him to just believe what he thought was right, who cares if other people agree with you? He says he doesn't know if it's "real" if he just made it up himself.

    THE POINT BEING (sorry about that tangent), I think he needs external reference/approval for every major choice, decision, action. Other SFJs I know are like this too with other matters.

    As for what you said before - I think the ISFPs that are kind of INFP-ish are more prone to alienation.
    Well as for SFJs...my ex is ESFJ. He just *is* I honestly cannot see him as any other type, although in the beginning when I was still susceptible to stereotypes I thought SFP instead. He also tests as ESFJ.

    He is soooo freakin' Fe/Si....he has the Fe-dom male charm, manipulation, social grace down pat. He also used to get frustrated if I was being what he considered "socially weird" and had the SFJ attachment to "my old neighborhood" etc.

    As for Si, he's a lifelong collector of international horror, and he seeks a very particular aesthetic. He started collecting when he was 7, and considers himself a kind of indie expert. He actually had a list of international horror films he kept from CHILDHOOD which he showed to me in his twenties, where he had carefully marked off each film as he collected it. Everything has to be "just so" and he tends to eat foods he is familiar with and knows he likes, and has issues with major change. He's got a great eye and ear for art, but he rarely creates original art: he is the prototypical Si aesthete, which is a collector and a connoisseur.

    He was raised by liberal parents, and his father is atheist and his mother is spiritual though not religious, which makes him this kind of agnostic but DEEPLY superstious person. He does not believe in god, but he believes in good and evil.

    He also tends to conform to the habits, rituals, and Fe "rightness" of the way his mother raised him, like he insisted on putting his name first on Christmas gift tags because "he's the man."

    However, someone who doesn't understand Fe and Si, and just goes by stereotypes and Keirsey would be disconcerted by the fact that he looks and acts subversively to a lot of mainstream culture, and that he doesn't seem outwardly conservative by the American ideal....it also influences his "style" that he was raised in Las Vegas, which is a kind of Se culture, causing his Fe/Si to conform a bit to the stylistic flash of the place.

    He also does cute, stereotypical SFJ things like clean the house all the time, says he doesn't trust strangers because they "might get their AIDS on you," and generally gets nervous in unfamiliar situations because of his Si, I think. He wants things to be comfortable and the way he aesthetically prefers it: always.

    He also tends toward Fe control in facial expression. He once said to me, "what is wrong with those people who sit around slack-jawed, please smack me if I ever look like that."

    And while he is very clean about sex in the sense of taking showers and changing sheets, he is not a prude by any stretch of the imagination, he's actually kind of a freak, which totally deviates from stereotypes about SFJ sexuality. He is, however, extremely faithful and has the sort of morals about sexual fidelity which could easily result in murder or a murder/suicide. Yeah.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    I agree with most of this, actually...but, are you suggesting that it's YOUR fault you think the way you do? Surely it isn't the fault of others but is it yours?
    Yes and no. I'm unsure of where personality stands on the spectrum between "free will" and "coded in the very fabric of my being." If it's more on the former's end then, sure, it IS my fault. If on the latter, then no it's not. But that just dredges up a slew of new questions such as "why are some people some way and other's not?" and "what IS that personality code, anyway?"

    And if it's a question of nurture, then it would be the world's fault after all.

    But "fault" really is a bad word for it. "Responsibility" is probably better.

  6. #56
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    Do you really think that people who obsess about typology enough to regularly participate on a forum about it are going to be that clueless about the S/N divide?
    Emphatically, yes. It's naive on its own to assume that people generally know what they're talking about (even in an area of interest), but it's downright stupid given the evidence we have on this forum alone of N/S misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and general fuckheadedness.

    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    And since when is seeing oneself as a tortured anything going to be seen as virtuous?
    Don't pretend like that image is not an appealing one to a lot of people. The tortured genius (tortured by a society that fundamentally does not understand them because of their brilliance/depth/artistic talent/insight) is a well-known and well-integrated trope. Or tortured genius v.s. establishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    The problem here is that if you don't like the stereotype method, Keirsey isn't the way to go.
    Yes? That's the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Wow - thank you! That wasn't quite what I intended - because I thought you were criticizing the S descriptions and not the N ones -
    Damn that Jennifer.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    but the details in this thread got so bogged down that I just got confused after a while. Either way, I'm glad to help, and glad you agree, because it's a helluvalot easier to fix the N descriptions than the S ones, considering the number of intuitives on the internet, vs. sensors.
    They all need revamping, IMO.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #57
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    I think this is true. I showed descriptions to a few SFJs in my life after they tested as SFJ and they thought the descriptions were flattering. I couldn't believe it. So it seems like a bit of, to SJs, the SJ descriptions are not that bad. Some of them.
    Yep! I actually thought Keirsey's descriptions of ISFJs for example was actually very flattering. I actually felt a big boost when I tested as an ISFJ and read the description not just because it was unnervingly accurate but also because it made it seem like ISFJs were very important and had a lot of value in the world.

    As for the S-bias: I do think the real world is very Sensor-oriented (which is good for me but bad for you N's). Make no mistake about it though, you N's are very important as you all fulfill much needed roles in this world. I don't want to think about what kind of world this place would be without it's dreamers, star gazers, visionaries and idealists.

    Sensor's may be the grease that keeps the axles of the world turning but it's you Intuitive's that are the spark that get the machine going

    I hope that metaphor made sense
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
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    I think some do relate to the descriptions, of course. One of my ex-bf is totally ISFJ enneagram 2 (in my opinion), and I think he'd relate more to the description and he'd probably also be somewhat flattered. He's very sweet, giving, easy to get along with, and somewhat traditonal due to Southern upbringing. He couldn't WAIT to have a baby. He asked me what I wanted to name our kids on the first date. Obviously, he ended up having a kid with someone else (I was like no-no on that front, bro, even though I did date him for about five or six months) and I'm very happy, cuz he wanted to be a father so bad.

    On the other hand, you have SFJs like my ex who was like "this sounds sort of like me, but what's with all of this bullshit saying I'm conservative and easily-shocked on this description" ...who also would prolly not be typed ESFJ maybe on a chance first-impression meeting (depending on his emotional state that day, and who was evaluating). I think he is an unhealthy 3w2. You know, the enneagram type most likely to act like American Psycho at total disintegration.

    Or someone like JTG1984 who shows off his ENTP shadow on-line, but is soooooo soooo obviously ISxJ, even if there is some debate amongst those who question if he really has Si/Fe, or if it's an Si/Fi loop. He insists ISFJ, and yeah, I can see it.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I hope that metaphor made sense
    It did, to me anyway.
    to you too.

    Ns are certainly important to this world too which makes me wonder why it's so unwelcoming to them. Perhaps the Ss here have done the equivalent of overcoming their subconscious anti-N bias by learning about issues Ns face (gosh, that sounds absurd, but I can't figure out how else to phrase it). Whereas Ss that are unfamiliar with MBTI do much unintentional harm.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
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    So eat it, you should.
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  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Don't pretend like that image is not an appealing one to a lot of people. The tortured genius (tortured by a society that fundamentally does not understand them because of their brilliance/depth/artistic talent/insight) is a well-known and well-integrated trope. Or tortured genius v.s. establishment.
    I think the problem usually for the "tortured genius" (in reality, not in fantasy) is not that society doesn't understand him, but that he doesn't understand society.

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