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  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Is that what you're doing?
    Okay, mommy.
    *pinches your cheeks*
    Good girl! Boy! Whatever!

    Agreed.
    Already knew that. It's what you do.
    Glad we're on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity
    Posts about wiki moved here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...criptions.html
    Check it out!
    Thanks for that, R.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    *pinches your cheeks*
    Good girl! Boy! Whatever!
    If we're doing this, then I'm the naughty little boy who punches you in the stomach and runs away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Glad we're on the same page.
    That's boring.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #43
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    I actually envy ESTPs, enjoying their exuberance, fearlessness, strength and yes, honesty with themselves. There are more delusional N's than S's, since we don't primarily source from the real world.

    Life would have been a hella' lot easier for me as an ESTP since most of my family are S-types.

    But no one can deny there's a different kind of intelligence resonation between N and S types. How that factors into a real world hierarchy will be individual reliant. Met some really stupid S's and N's.

  4. #44
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Totally with you until the bolded. I know you and Jennifer are trying to give some positive advice (and a type wiki thing sound like an interesting project), but I would like to point out that it is by no means inevitable that if Ns write descriptions (especially self-described "Ns" on the internet, or that idiot Keirsey) that they're going to be biased in favor of N. The inflation of the N profiles on a lot of sites is still in need of better explanation than just "they're Ns. It's what they do." I mean, those socionics fuckers have no such problems, what the hell is wrong with Keirsey?
    That's true. I think it's because Socionics is a more analytical, less subjective system than Keirsey (and arguably less subjective than MBTI itself), and doesn't allow as much room for that kind of thing. Socionics tries to stay as true to the original Jungian functions as possible, while MBTI takes a bit more creative license and pushes more towards dichotomies. Keirsey takes even more than MBTI, and focuses only on dichotomies, throwing out function theory completely. The disadvantage is that Socionics is less "fluid," and thus more difficult to apply to people.

    Honestly, I think 90% of the problem would be solved if we could stamp out Keirsey's influence on the discourse. His descriptions seem to be the ones causing most of these misconceptions.

    Actually, I do think that Ns could write good S descriptions, but they would have to be Ns who were fairly comfortable with their own S function, so that they wouldn't have all the negativity of the shadow coming into play. Most Ns (myself included) aren't going to be that mature, however... so it's much more likely that an S would write better S descriptions.

  5. #45
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    I think the problem is lack of identification with the subject when writing the descriptions.

    I could write a good bit about my own motivations because I know myself well, but it would be hard for me to write about someone with a personality that's not at all like mine.

    So, I'd write a coherent three-page summary of myself, whereas my description of the other person would be about a paragraph of guesswork.

    I could try to expand on this guesswork with many "In theory..." remarks, but they'd be largely baseless and out of touch with reality.

  6. #46
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    I both agree and disagree. There's definitely truth to what you're saying, though some SPs - ISFPs, especially don't feel like they quite "fit in" either because of being Fi doms. I think there is even a possibility that ESFPs have a greater social advantage, and STPs have an intellectual advantage in terms of practical things like engineering or mechanics, leaving ISFPs to still kind of be misunderstood artists.

    NPs can also access their "inner SJ" at more mature stages of their lives, NFPs having STJ shadow qualities, and NTP having SFJ shadow qualities...but YES in youth it leaves you open to all measure of suggestions of being weird, crazy, lazy, or silly. In my case being raised by an unhealthy ESTJ was pretty bad, as that when I was a teenager she was completely mystified by my strengths, absolutely enraged by my weaknesses, and couldn't understand why such a "smart" child grew up to be THIS....however, the thing is, like I said NPs have more balance later in life, so by the time I was about 25 I think I started managing a whole lot better.

    It may have helped me to be raised by SJs and to have a five year relationship with an SJ, that is to say, in developing my tertiary and inferior functions to an extent. However, as I mentioned, it also harmed me because my grandfather's ESTJ wife was so unhealthy and overbearing about rejecting her own Ne/Fi, I guess, and took it out on me. I don't know. She was not well, and my entire family agrees, so I don't want to suggest that *all* ESTJs are quite that awful toward their NP children or grandchildren or whatever.

    I think INJs may be even more misunderstood than NPs in some ways, as they do not have an inner SJ (which is what society is half-made of) and Ni is such a personal and misunderstood function by like 97% of the world.

    However, it helps ENJs greatly to either have Fe or Te as a dom function, I will agree with that much, yes indeed.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post

    Honestly, I think 90% of the problem would be solved if we could stamp out Keirsey's influence on the discourse. His descriptions seem to be the ones causing most of these misconceptions.
    Yes, I strongly agree. Get rid of Keirsey - essentially his descriptions cause more harm than good, leading to ridiculous stereotypes.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    I think this is true. I showed descriptions to a few SFJs in my life after they tested as SFJ and they thought the descriptions were flattering. I couldn't believe it. So it seems like a bit of, to SJs, the SJ descriptions are not that bad. Some of them.
    Okay I want to add something to that, though. The problem with many SJ descriptions is that they're too acclimated to *particular mainstream manifestations of Si, especially which were more common in our culture in the past*...what this means is that SJs raised in a very old-fashioned, mainstream conservative American household as fundamentalist Christians might still look at the SJ descriptions and say, "why yes! that's kind of like me!"

    Unfortunately, for all of the other SJs who were raised by atheists or liberals or in more progressive cities or in extreme cases in crackhouses (trust me, I do have a point here) they're like "WHAT. THE. FUCK. IS. THIS."

    Keirsey (and even some MBTI) descriptions are so divorced from what Si actually is that they get it all wrong for more and more young people, or people who were raised in less "traditional" or non-religious environments. They also fail to take into account the information age, this time of mass communication we live in, where people - including SJs - are more more exposed to diversity, meaning that today's 20 or 25 year old SJ is going to have a completely different Si reference, no matter who his or her parents or neighborhood happened to be, than a 50 or 60 year old SJ who was raised in a very sheltered and more limited environment.

  9. #49
    All Natural! All Good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Posts about wiki moved here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...criptions.html

    Check it out!

    Thanks!

    Also to Wolfy for that thread he linked earlier.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Keirsey (and even some MBTI) descriptions are so divorced from what Si actually is that they get it all wrong for more and more young people, or people who were raised in less "traditional" or non-religious environments. They also fail to take into account the information age, this time of mass communication we live in, where people - including SJs - are more more exposed to diversity, meaning that today's 20 or 25 year old SJ is going to have a completely different Si reference, no matter who his or her parents or neighborhood happened to be, than a 50 or 60 year old SJ who was raised in a very sheltered and more limited environment.
    You're right, of course. We start to run into problems when the descriptions deviate too far from what Si/Je (Je/Si) axis really is. This is one of the reasons I really, really don't like Keirsey. He stereotypes and TOTALLY ignores the cognitive functions! And his books are really outdated, the SJs descriptions in there are exactly like what you said above, with the conservative upbringing etc.

    But yes I mentioned SFJs that relate to their "traditional" descriptions. The ISFJ I know well was raised by two atheists, but he became religious. He is 22. We live in Toronto, Canada...I'd say this is a pretty liberal city. I still agree though that many people would not relate to SJ descriptions. SJs can be very open-minded no doubt, my ISFJ is too, but he likes being "traditional". I think the SJs that relate to this would prefer to keep doing what has already been done by someone (doesn't have to be parents, themselves, or anyone specific). This ISFJ struggled with wanting to believe in god but not finding a religion that fit his values. I told him to just believe what he thought was right, who cares if other people agree with you? He says he doesn't know if it's "real" if he just made it up himself.

    THE POINT BEING (sorry about that tangent), I think he needs external reference/approval for every major choice, decision, action. Other SFJs I know are like this too with other matters.

    As for what you said before - I think the ISFPs that are kind of INFP-ish are more prone to alienation.
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  10. #50
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post


    You've taken the words out of my mouth. I don't know what I'd do if you weren't here to NOT willfully misunderstand me on all counts.

    :workout::workout::workout::workout:
    Wow - thank you! That wasn't quite what I intended - because I thought you were criticizing the S descriptions and not the N ones - but the details in this thread got so bogged down that I just got confused after a while. Either way, I'm glad to help, and glad you agree, because it's a helluvalot easier to fix the N descriptions than the S ones, considering the number of intuitives on the internet, vs. sensors.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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