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  1. #191
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    If it's a "sensors world" I don't much sense it. Is it hidden privilege? Am I unaware of how I benefit from the privileges of being S at the expense of Ns? Is it like white privilege (except without, you know, any of the history of real oppression behind it?)

    I still have yet to receive satisfactory answers for the following questions:

    1. How is the world S? What specifically do you mean by that?
    2. In what specific ways are you, as an N, oppressed by Ss or S society?
    3. In what specific ways are you, as an S, aware of your privilege as an S being in S society?
    4. In what specific ways have you Ns adapted to S society?

    Why has it been so difficult to get a clear argument from any of you? Why should I accept these assertions at face value? Until I see evidence that some experiences of disenfranchisement can ONLY be explained as a result of being an N in an S environment, I'm not going to believe it. That means no cheating: no attribution to context (because if it's a general rule, it has to be consistently true across multiple contexts), no specifying functions (because then it would be a type or temperament issue, not an S/N dichotomy issue), and no tautological statements (e.g., it's true because it's true.)
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  2. #192
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    If it's a "sensors world" I don't much sense it. Is it hidden privilege? Am I unaware of how I benefit from the privileges of being S at the expense of Ns? Is it like white privilege (except without, you know, any of the history of real oppression behind it?)
    Many people cant cope with reality and this is perfectly understandable, since reality sucks. It appears that being a S is the impersonification of being real, while being a N is the impersonification of being unreal.

    People dont understand that being a S means to perceive reality for real, while being an N means to perceive reality for what it is not. This maybe helpful in intellectual pursuits of all kind, but when it comes down to being real and living in reality, we all need to be Sensors, otherwise it wont work.

    The funny thing is, orangey, the people whocomplain the most that they are victims in a sensor world are the ones who victimize sensors the most. As in "what you shouted into the forrest, is the echo you receive".

    I perfectly convinced there is a difference in perception about things with S and N people. While the S could say "we will do what they want us to do", the N maybe says "we will look what else we can do, to do what they want us to do", yet when it comes to living in the real world, noone is a victim to anyone, except he victimizes himself. It is us who form reality and it is reality that needs us to be real, if intuitives keep on running around saying they are victimized by reality, it will never explain to S people what it means to be a N and the problem they have their is of a completly different nature than just a perception of reality difference.

    It is a coping with reality problem
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #193
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Many people cant cope with reality and this is perfectly understandable, since reality sucks. It appears that being a S is the impersonification of being real, while being a N is the impersonification of being unreal.

    People dont understand that being a S means to perceive reality for real, while being an N means to perceive reality for what it is not. This maybe helpful in intellectual pursuits of all kind, but when it comes down to being real and living in reality, we all need to be Sensors, otherwise it wont work.
    Aren't there iNtuitives (thinking of NTJs, but others, too) who pride themselves on their perception of reality? Who pride themselves on the ability to cut through the bullshit to get to what's real? I don't think all iNtuitives are cloudcuckoolanders.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #194
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Aren't there iNtuitives (thinking of NTJs, but others, too) who pride themselves on their perception of reality? Who pride themselves on the ability to cut through the bullshit to get to what's real? I don't think all iNtuitives are cloudcuckoolanders.
    I didnt want to say that Ns are a victim of their perception, I rather meant that people use the N-definition to say they are victims because of their perception and thats why they have a hard time in society.

    I wont disagree that I see things differently than the majority of people I hang around with. I on a daily basis tho go thru the trouble of explaining myself because I want my friends to understand me. I was thinking for a long time, if it's just me suffering from mental illness or who is just unable to express himself, but nowadays I know that I indeed have a different way of perception in many things and that I skip essentials which lead to result and almost always start talking about the end result or big picture.

    Lately I told the people at work about gtl a new fuel from shell that will be buyable at the end of 2011. The people at work are working in an electromobility workgroup and they let me talk about the fuel for 10 minutes and then someone asked, what this has to do with electromobility. Well my point was, it is possible that the introduction of electric vehicles can be significantly delayed because there will be alternative fuel concepts first, which will make people use their normal cars for another 10 years.

    It's not like the people in the group would have never had this idea, yet my complete focus of thinking is a different one. I start thinking at the point in which I look for the longterm impact. The people at work would have gotten there too, but later, after they concentrated on whats essential for them.

    Yet there's an isfp on the team, who is also my bureau colleague, who has been hanging around with me for so long that he did understand me and defended me in front of the others. And that's what I think it is about, it's not about blaming the sensors for any mysery or for real life you cant cope with, it is about working together with them and showing them who you are and how you think.

    The thing you said about Ns being convinced their perception is unique, well to me it is like it is with mental illness. There's for example a healthy part to curiosity when ecercised to a certain amount. When overdone so it quickly becomes an illness. Same goes in my book for people who think they are onto something and can perceive reality thru channels noone else can. You always need to be a bit cautious around those guys, this applies for S and for N people aswell.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #195
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I guess that what really pisses me off is that I don't really fit in either here (too sensor) or in the real world (too random)... I get accused of being the type of person who keeps the poor little intuitives down in real life when I get comments on being just too odd in real life where I don't fit in either... the thought that it's right to take things out on the sensors on the board really isn't fair
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #196
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I've been thinking... do you think it might be a good idea for someone to create a new forum or mailing list or something just for Sensors to escape from the N prejudice so prevalent on these? I mean, regardless of whether the anti-S bias is justified or not, it's pretty deeply entrenched in our forum culture now, and I don't think it's going anywhere.

    I mean, Ns created forums to get away from a feeling (real or imagined) of anti-N bias in the real world... maybe S types need their own corner of cyberspace to escape from the anti-S bias. That seems to be the only solution. From the looks of this thread, it doesn't appear that most of us will be able to stop criticizing each other.

  7. #197
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    If it's a "sensors world" I don't much sense it. Is it hidden privilege? Am I unaware of how I benefit from the privileges of being S at the expense of Ns? Is it like white privilege (except without, you know, any of the history of real oppression behind it?)

    I still have yet to receive satisfactory answers for the following questions:

    1. How is the world S? What specifically do you mean by that?
    2. In what specific ways are you, as an N, oppressed by Ss or S society?
    3. In what specific ways are you, as an S, aware of your privilege as an S being in S society?
    4. In what specific ways have you Ns adapted to S society?

    Why has it been so difficult to get a clear argument from any of you? Why should I accept these assertions at face value? Until I see evidence that some experiences of disenfranchisement can ONLY be explained as a result of being an N in an S environment, I'm not going to believe it. That means no cheating: no attribution to context (because if it's a general rule, it has to be consistently true across multiple contexts), no specifying functions (because then it would be a type or temperament issue, not an S/N dichotomy issue), and no tautological statements (e.g., it's true because it's true.)
    You're looking for evidence that you can touch, see, smell and feel. This is typical of what an intuitive must adapt to in the real world, in that we have to express concepts in concrete terms. I'm not begrudging this at all since it is a sensors world so intuitives have to adapt. But it is interesting to see the divide in real terms, in expression, communication styles, demanding that intuitives express their frustrations in concrete terms. Sensors like yourself don't owe intuitives anything. But intuitives don't owe sensors like yourself any explanations. How we think and communicate is the divide. How some sensors think and understand, is the divide.

  8. #198
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I've been thinking... do you think it might be a good idea for someone to create a new forum or mailing list or something just for Sensors to escape from the N prejudice so prevalent on these? I mean, regardless of whether the anti-S bias is justified or not, it's pretty deeply entrenched in our forum culture now, and I don't think it's going anywhere.

    I mean, Ns created forums to get away from a feeling (real or imagined) of anti-N bias in the real world... maybe S types need their own corner of cyberspace to escape from the anti-S bias. That seems to be the only solution. From the looks of this thread, it doesn't appear that most of us will be able to stop criticizing each other.
    The thing is that I shouldn't have to go away... I don't cause any problems and if you met me in real life you would probably type me as an intuitive because I'm really very borderline! I just trend to really enjoy my se so I choose to identify as a sensor... I'm here because I like it here... Not to be a sacrificial lamb for every time an estp does something bad in real life


    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    You're looking for evidence that you can touch, see, smell and feel. This is typical of what an intuitive must adapt to in the real world, in that we have to express concepts in concrete terms. I'm not begrudging this at all since it is a sensors world so intuitives have to adapt. But it is interesting to see the divide in real terms, in expression, communication styles, demanding that intuitives express their frustrations in concrete terms. Sensors like yourself don't owe intuitives anything. But intuitives don't owe sensors like yourself any explanations. How we think and communicate is the divide. How some sensors think and understand, is the divide.

    Excuse me, but I haven't had any problem with a communication barrier going either way on here so kindly do not overgeneralize
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #199
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Excuse me, but I haven't had any problem with a communication barrier going either way on here so kindly do not overgeneralize
    Excuse you, do you fit into the subcategory of some sensors?

  10. #200
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    The thing is that I shouldn't have to go away... I don't cause any problems and if you met me in real life you would probably type me as an intuitive because I'm really very borderline! I just trend to really enjoy my se so I choose to identify as a sensor... I'm here because I like it here... Not to be a sacrificial lamb for every time an estp does something bad in real life
    I wasn't so much talking about you going away. In fact, I really hope that you don't.

    I was talking more about the people who are just really angry about the anti-S bias, and are tired of dealing with it. I don't think most of us dislike the Sensors on this forum, I think it's just that we like to complain a lot about the people in real life that we think are Sensors, and the Sensors on here feel like it's directed at them.

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