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  1. #11
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    ISTP

    The nature of Crafters is most clearly seen in their masterful operation of tools, equipment, machines, and instruments of all kinds. Most us use tools in some capacity, of course, but Crafters (as much as ten percent of the population) are the true masters of tool work, with an innate ability to command tools and to become expert at all the crafts requiring tool skills. Even from an early age they are drawn to tools as if to a magnet -- tools fall into their hands demanding use, and they must work with them.

    Like all the Artisans, Crafters are people who love action, and who know instinctively that their activities are more enjoyable, and more effective, if done impulsively, spontaneously, subject to no schedules or standards but their own. In a sense, Crafters do not work with their tools, but play with them when the urge strikes them. Crafters also seek fun and games on impulse, looking for any opportunity, and just because they feel like it, to play with their various toys: cars, motorcycles, boats, dune-buggies, hunting rifles, fishing tackle, scuba gear, and on and on. They thrive on excitement, particularly the rush of speed-racing, water-skiing, surfing. And Crafters are fearless in their play, exposing themselves to danger again and again, even despite frequent injury. Of all the types, Crafters are most likely to be risk takers, pitting themselves, or their technique, against chance or odds.

    Communication tip for ISTP employee with Idealist boss Crafters are hard to get to know. Perhaps this is because they tend to communicate through action, and show little interest in developing language skills. Their lack of expressiveness can isolate them at school and on the job, and even though they hang around with their own kind in play, they let their actions speak for them, and their actual conversation is sparse and brief.

    Crafters can be wonderfully generous and loyal to their friends, teammates, and sidekicks, often giving up their evenings or weekends to help with building projects or mechanical repairs-house remodeling, for example, or working on cars or boats. On the other hand, they can be fiercely insubordinate to those in authority, seeing rules and regulations as unnecessarily confining. Crafters will not usually go against regulations openly, but will simply ignore them. More than anything, Crafters want to be free to do their own thing, and they are proud of their ability to do it with an artist's skill.
    INTP

    Architects need not be thought of as only interested in drawing blueprints for buildings or roads or bridges. They are the master designers of all kinds of theoretical systems, including school curricula, corporate strategies, and new technologies. For Architects, the world exists primarily to be analyzed, understood, explained - and re-designed. External reality in itself is unimportant, little more than raw material to be organized into structural models. What is important for Architects is that they grasp fundamental principles and natural laws, and that their designs are elegant, that is, efficient and coherent.

    Architects are rare - maybe one percent of the population - and show the greatest precision in thought and speech of all the types. They tend to see distinctions and inconsistencies instantaneously, and can detect contradictions no matter when or where they were made. It is difficult for an Architect to listen to nonsense, even in a casual conversation, without pointing out the speaker's error. And in any serious discussion or debate Architects are devastating, their skill in framing arguments giving them an enormous advantage. Architects regard all discussions as a search for understanding, and believe their function is to eliminate inconsistencies, which can make communication with them an uncomfortable experience for many.

    Communication tip for INTP employee with an Idealist boss Ruthless pragmatists about ideas, and insatiably curious, Architects are driven to find the most efficient means to their ends, and they will learn in any manner and degree they can. They will listen to amateurs if their ideas are useful, and will ignore the experts if theirs are not. Authority derived from office, credential, or celebrity does not impress them. Architects are interested only in what make sense, and thus only statements that are consistent and coherent carry any weight with them.
    Architects often seem difficult to know. They are inclined to be shy except with close friends, and their reserve is difficult to penetrate. Able to concentrate better than any other type, they prefer to work quietly at their computers or drafting tables, and often alone. Architects also become obsessed with analysis, and this can seem to shut others out. Once caught up in a thought process, Architects close off and persevere until they comprehend the issue in all its complexity. Architects prize intelligence, and with their grand desire to grasp the structure of the universe, they can seem arrogant and may show impatience with others who have less ability, or who are less driven.
    This is from Keirsey. The difference is clear; ISTPs play with tools and boats and cars, while INTPs have A Beautiful Mind. I could find more, but do I have to?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Here's what I read there.
    Don't you think maybe you're reading between the lines a little too much?

  3. #13
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Don't you think maybe you're reading between the lines a little too much?
    No.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Don't you think maybe you're reading between the lines a little too much?
    OMG. But...Orangey is an S! That means there is no chance to read between the lines of anything! Alas. Only N's can do that! ... cannot compute.... cannot computer... *sizzle*


    ... srsyly, though:

    1. Until SFJs and STPs (etc) start caring enough to write their own type descriptions, there's always going to be some sort of bias someone can complain about... just like with ANYTHING in life where someone writes something. Stop complaining about the bias and actually do something about it. Is it being insinuated that the type descriptions are biased because the N's are typically the ones with an interest in writing the descriptions and S's are doing exactly what Keirsey stated above... i.e., not caring enough to not write their own, that they feel more comfortable with?

    2. Communication's a two-way street, and the writer is not always 100% to blame for the way something is perceived. I can see a few inequities I would fix in the type descriptions above, but I actually read the ISTP comments as far more positive than Orangey does and am jealous of some of the traits described in the ISTP description. Is it Keirsey who is degrading the more typical S contributions or is it at least in part the reader who does not value some of the S contributions and thinks that N's qualities are more appealing?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Orangey, I think we're both talking from our own personal experiences, but I doubt you can generalize it like that. Far be it from me to question people's type especially as I don't know them, so if people identify as an N, I regard them as such unless I see clear evidence to the contrary, so that's what my statement and conclusion was based on. I know you used to identify as an INTP and perhaps this was true for you, but I don't know if that applies to the majority of people here, though there probably are others.

    Personaly, I envy SPs, if only for the awareness they have wrt their body, but I've never doubted for a second that I was an N. Despite that envy, it was clear to me from those descriptions that my own personal preference and skill set were nowhere near theirs. It just wasn't me, even if I may have wanted it to be so.

    Edit: As for the ENTJ-thing you mentioned, I was talking from my own perspective, check the post. And I'm NP, the direct opposite of SJ's. It clashes on occasion, as priorities and skill sets are often in complete opposition.
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  6. #16
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No.
    I'm sorry you feel that way.

    I was trying to compliment Sensors, and explain why we feel frustrated with them, but... it apparently still came across as arrogance. Sigh. Personally, though, I still think it sounded a lot less arrogant than the stuff the NTs were saying.

  7. #17
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    1. Until SFJs and STPs (etc) start caring enough to write their own type descriptions, there's always going to be some sort of bias someone can complain about... just like with ANYTHING in life where someone writes something. Stop complaining about the bias and actually do something about it. Is it being insinuated that the type descriptions are biased because the N's are typically the ones with an interest in writing the descriptions and S's are doing exactly what Keirsey stated above... i.e., not caring enough to not write their own, that they feel more comfortable with?
    I was not pointing it out to complain about it (though it is obnoxious.) It's tied to my other argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    2. Communication's a two-way street, and the writer is not always 100% to blame for the way something is perceived. I can see a few inequities I would fix in the type descriptions above, but I actually read the ISTP comments as far more positive than Orangey does and am jealous of some of the traits described in the ISTP description. Is it Keirsey who is degrading the more typical S contributions or is it at least in part the reader who does not value some of the S contributions and thinks that N's qualities are more appealing?
    It's not that the stuff in the ISTP description is bad in and of itself. If all descriptions focused on how the type presents in everyday life, that would be fine. But as it is, it's like the ISTP is Mechanical Joe from down the street and the INTP is John Nash. The devil's in the comparison, and these two descriptions (as is often the case) are on different scales. And no, it doesn't have anything to do with the reader valuing the N qualities over the S ones, because it's skills that are being attributed to the types. One is skilled with power tools while the other is skilled in precision of thought and language, concentration, argumentation, design, and efficiency. The ISTP one is realistic and the INTP one is gushing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Orangey, I think we're both talking from our own personal experiences, but I doubt you can generalize it like that. Far be it from me to question people's type especially as I don't know them, so if people identify as an N, I regard them as such unless I see clear evidence to the contrary, so that's what my statement and conclusion was based on. I know you used to identify as an INTP and perhaps this was true for you, but I don't know if that applies to the majority of people here, though there probably are others.
    I guess this is a perspectival difference, then, as neither of us has the greater evidence for our suspicions. You have people's self-typings and testimony, and I have N bias trends and the fact that people who were sooooo INFP yesterday are now ISFJ (the former being evidence that people are influenced by the values attached to certain types on these communities and in the descriptions, and the latter that starkly different types can agree on a lot of the things discussed across the forum, meaning that there's no reason to believe that the grouping and agreement going on in threads is proof of type.)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Here's what I read there.

    Please. The idea that most of the Ns on this forum are actually Ns is nothing but group delusion. The reason there is N bias is because the differences in the quality of descriptions between Ss and Ns (and actually, to be more specific, between the I/ENPs, INJs and the rest...the ENJs get a crappier treatment in the descriptions, too) causes people to identify with the more "awesome" ones. And don't pretend like there's not a difference. The INTP description, for instance, makes them sound like they're all brilliant scientists or philosophers, while the ISTP description makes them sound like a car mechanic with a beer gut. And going by the amount of gloating that people around here engage in about the virtues of their type (everyone here is apparently a tortured dreamer, genius, or idealist that just can't fit into this mundane world), it's not far-fetched to think that people probably identify more with the virtues than the actual types.

    Plus, do you think it's even fair to lump, say, an ENTJ (or really, any NJ) in with you as far as appearing "lazy" or "immature" to an SJ observer? I know an ENTJ and ENFJ in real life, and they are very far from being or appearing lazy or immature to anyone. Moreover, my ESFP sister (and pretty much all ESFPs I've ever known) struggles with things like laziness, organization, and immaturity FAR more than anyone else I know.
    You are of course right, yet I think that dreaming about being a scientist or philosopher can be a big source of energy to some people. Later when they get older they hopefully recognize that they are human like everyone else, but hope alone can in troubled times may be a huge help to them.

    I myself have grown up with an istp father and he's down-to-earth realistic. Tho when I was a young boy he always listened to the stories I told them, which went on for multiple hours and which I called my dreams, he did that only because he's my Dad and he loves me. Later on when I got older he expected more realism in more fields from me and never really managed to understand that I am just not like that that I will stay being a dreamer for all my life.

    I dont think that this necessarily is the final definition for being a N or S but regarding my own feelings towards my Dad, I had wished for more acceptance on his side when I got older. It's hard having to cope with someone on a daily basis who tells you every five seconds to shut your mouth or a fly flies into it
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  9. #19
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm sorry you feel that way.

    I was trying to compliment Sensors, and explain why we feel frustrated with them, but... it apparently still came across as arrogance. Sigh. Personally, though, I still think it sounded a lot less arrogant than the stuff the NTs were saying.
    It doesn't work if all you do is reverse the values. You can't, for instance, call someone stupid but then come back and say that you actually envy their stupidity because it would give you a break from your own ever-toiling, brilliant mind. It's absurd. The main problem is with what you're characterizing as the strengths of Ss and Ns, which are neither fair nor accurate. In fact, your self-appointed spokesmanship for Ns is itself questionable.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #20
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I envy S's as well. Enough to want to emphasize a lot of the points in myself that are SP-like. Before I signed up here over a year ago, I remember trying to rationalize with a few friends (one INTP and another INFP) that I may have been ISFP. I was kind of hopeful of that possibility.

    That said, that's been damaging for me in a way. Emphasizing these points is misleading. Mostly to myself.

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