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  1. #171
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    My ISTJ brother is regularly harassed by my parents about being "weird" and "antisocial" because he loves nothing more than to sit in his room and read books. They tell him he's going to become a serial killer if he doesn't get out more. He also gets into blowouts with my parents about religion (if you didn't read before, my parents are fundamentalists.)
    You should tell them that ISTPs are the actual serial killers.

    Sigh. Bad joke.

    It's true though.

    Damnit. No! Noooo..

  2. #172
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It doesn't need to be the other way around, though. An S can feel disenfranchised in these so-called "S" environments as much as an N can, and that's because the feeling of disenfranchisement has more to do with the family being assholes or fundamentalists or rigid or [insert other more immediately relevant factor] than simply being S. Which was what I gathered from Seymour's follow-up post to my question.

    I'd agree that people can feel invalidated for all kinds of reasons, many of which have nothing in particular to do with type (for example, being overweight or having a learning disability). I also agree that having parents incapable of consistently showing love, caring and acceptance (for whatever reasons) is going to be painful and damaging in fundamental ways.

    Reading back, I'd also agree with you that SFPs have perhaps the hardest row to hoe in many areas (like schooling and the business world). Again, I don't think it pays to try to argue about who has it the worst. That just leads to invalidating people's experiences that don't fit one's model, "Oh, you couldn't have possibly suffered much, because clearly X-group has it the worst!"

    I feel that being an INFP in an environment that valued other strengths led to some type-related areas of hurt for me. I don't think my father meant to invalidate me, or that my church was designed to oppress NFPs, or that the people around me were bad people. They were all generally doing their best and what they thought was right. And while it wasn't the ideal environment for me in a number of ways, I did learn resilience and gain understanding of perspectives that would have remained foreign to me otherwise.

    So I'd still argue that not every social environment equally values the strengths of every type (as SFPs sometimes feel with traditional schooling and corporate cultures). I think that in the environment of my upbringing, that an STJ male (rather than an NFP one) would have likely fit in better.

    But that's not to say than an STJ might not have felt alien in an environment that favored NFP strengths, or that an STJ in my home environment wouldn't have been invalidated for other reasons. Or even than an STJ in an identical environment to mine but with more dysfunctional parents wouldn't have had it far worse than I did. No one escapes childhood unscathed, but clearly some of us get off easier than others.

    Still, the US has changed since I was young, and in general it seems to be more diverse than the Texas town of my youth. Things like the internet and the rise of geek culture (and other subcultures) provide additional means of finding like-minded folks regardless of geographic location. I'm hoping that helps those who are out of sync with their immediate environments, but I remain doubtful that it can fully mitigate feeling invalidated by one's immediate family. Feeling invalidated by those close to you just sucks, and I feel for people who have suffered that, type-related or not.

    (btw, my using SFPs as an example doesn't mean that they can't and don't do well in formal schooling or excel in corporate culture... just that statically they tend to struggle more in those environments than some)

    EDIT: Sorry to hear about your ISTJ brother getting harassed, Orangey. No type has an exclusive claim on intolerance.

  3. #173
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    I struggle with corporate culture. If that was my only option in life, I'd fail.

    I believe corporate culture best serves TJs, and who knows which types after that.

  4. #174
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    My ISTJ brother is regularly harassed by my parents about being "weird" and "antisocial" because he loves nothing more than to sit in his room and read books. They tell him he's going to become a serial killer if he doesn't get out more. He also gets into blowouts with my parents about religion (if you didn't read before, my parents are fundamentalists.)
    There are lots of fundamentalists in America- and lots of changelings.
    Then your brother must feel he is a changeling, too. He is a lot like my father. What it is with these ISTJs?
    My father was always in his room, reading books. He bought three books a day, after work. He came home, stepped into his room, and closed the door. I never saw him much.

  5. #175
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    I have nothing against sensors.

  6. #176
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I'd agree that people can feel invalidated for all kinds of reasons, many of which have nothing in particular to do with type (for example, being overweight or having a learning disability). I also agree that having parents incapable of consistently showing love, caring and acceptance (for whatever reasons) is going to be painful and damaging in fundamental ways.

    Reading back, I'd also agree with you that SFPs have perhaps the hardest row to hoe in many areas (like schooling and the business world). Again, I don't think it pays to try to argue about who has it the worst. That just leads to invalidating people's experiences that don't fit one's model, "Oh, you couldn't have possibly suffered much, because clearly X-group has it the worst!"

    I feel that being an INFP in an environment that valued other strengths led to some type-related areas of hurt for me. I don't think my father meant to invalidate me, or that my church was designed to oppress NFPs, or that the people around me were bad people. They were all generally doing their best and what they thought was right. And while it wasn't the ideal environment for me in a number of ways, I did learn resilience and gain understanding of perspectives that would have remained foreign to me otherwise.

    So I'd still argue that not every social environment equally values the strengths of every type (as SFPs sometimes feel with traditional schooling and corporate cultures). I think that in the environment of my upbringing, that an STJ male (rather than an NFP one) would have likely fit in better.

    But that's not to say than an STJ might not have felt alien in an environment that favored NFP strengths, or that an STJ in my home environment wouldn't have been invalidated for other reasons. Or even than an STJ in an identical environment to mine but with more dysfunctional parents wouldn't have had it far worse than I did. No one escapes childhood unscathed, but clearly some of us get off easier than others.

    Still, the US has changed since I was young, and in general it seems to be more diverse than the Texas town of my youth. Things like the internet and the rise of geek culture (and other subcultures) provide additional means of finding like-minded folks regardless of geographic location. I'm hoping that helps those who are out of sync with their immediate environments, but I remain doubtful that it can fully mitigate feeling invalidated by one's immediate family. Feeling invalidated by those close to you just sucks, and I feel for people who have suffered that, type-related or not.

    (btw, my using SFPs as an example doesn't mean that they can't and don't do well in formal schooling or excel in corporate culture... just that statically they tend to struggle more in those environments than some)

    EDIT: Sorry to hear about your ISTJ brother getting harassed, Orangey. No type has an exclusive claim on intolerance.
    I think this is reasonable. While it's possible for an N and an S to feel disenfranchised for the same reason in the same situation, it's equally possible (or even probable) that they could have different reasons for feeling the way that they do (and these could be related to type.) If an STJ had been in your place as a child, he/she may not have experienced the same types of problems as an INFP would have, even if they experienced other problems to a comparable magnitude.

    I like your SFP example, though. I think it illustrates a good point about the context-sensitivity of disenfranchisement and the dependence (if we're going to put things into type terms) on whole types, not simply S or N.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #177
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    I have nothing against sensors.
    Neither did I prior to this thread.

  8. #178
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I struggle with corporate culture. If that was my only option in life, I'd fail.

    I believe corporate culture best serves TJs, and who knows which types after that.
    Same here. I haven't found my niche anywhere, for that matter (although I have some ideas now). I think I share a lot of the experience of ISFPs. Although I'd surmise that they test things out directly first and probably build up bigger resumes as a result (maybe pick up a lot of intangible elements along the way too.. like more friends.. not sure), even if they find themselves at square one again.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Same here. I haven't found my niche anywhere, for that matter (although I have some ideas now). I think I share a lot of the experience of ISFPs. Although I'd surmise that they test things out directly first and probably build up bigger resumes as a result (maybe pick up a lot of intangible elements along the way too.. like more friends.. not sure), even if they find themselves at square one again.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "test things out directly." Either you have a bunch of jobs, or you don't. I have worked at many corporations - for anywhere for three to six months, maybe eight to ten months MAX at a time. I started working in high school. I can't stick with any kind of corporate bullshit, I thought I wanted to be a teacher, but I hate the fucking public school system, and I've actively "tested things directly." It's just that I found that it was better for me to make money in more flexible, alternative ways for most of my life, including working in the adult industry off and on for many years.

    I'm fortunate now to be doing the work I'm doing, though I do have some of my schooling to thank for that, because it's flexible and very non-corporate.

    I identify with quite a few things in the ISFP description, but I assuredly have Si rather than Se, and that's why descriptions aren't a good way to type anyone...it leads to ambiguity, confusion, and lame stereotypes. I've sometimes wondered if people typed me as ESFP because of my past as an adult entertainer, and because of my usage of words like "dude" and "bro" because I seriously saw someone say once on this forum that only SFPs say "dude."

    It's another reason why I mentioned very, very early on in this thread (my first post, I believe) that ISFPs have a very hard time fitting in, just as much as any N.

    Any person can have problems, and I've already waaaaay covered that. Even so, it doesn't mean that people haven't encountered social problems because of being Intuitive.

  10. #180
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "test things out directly.".
    Se gravitates towards more action and engaging oneself in new sensory experiences, and being in or on the move in the present, etc.. It's the case for a lot of extroverts too (whether directly or indirectly), but I've read time and again it's the same for ISPs. It's one reason why I felt mistyped. Because of this, there's also an added patience in how they make judgements too. They're kind of looking at the direct emerging experience. They are not inclined to judge through patterns or going with bigger picture views. I can easily build scenarios in how things will suck without even experiencing them. I have a lot of information in my head to do it. I have a friend who cares about my goals, for example, but she told me not along ago how it's difficult to present an idea that I haven't thought through. I admit I'm probably difficult. I'll know what will be appealing when it hits me, but I don't have much care to wave off doubt and go for Se.. just to see if it works. I'm probably missing many things, but that's just how I think. In one way, this frees me up to express ideas that they may not, but it could lead into a lot of early criticism too (and self-criticism, for that matter). We both may be Fi, but I can't ignore how much longer they remain content, less bored, more tolerant, among other things. I have a lot to say about it, but I'll cut short here, I guess.
    Last edited by KDude; 03-06-2011 at 01:53 AM. Reason: typos

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