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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    the Ns who feel so disadvantaged should just start using their amazing magical N powers

    or, whatever, I forgot how this works


    Also, my girlfriend's an ESFP, and two of my absolute best friends are ESTJ and ESFJ. We somehow communicate just fine
    Yeah I've been talking about all of my sensing feeling friends and boyfriends and how well I communicated with my ex, etc....and yet anything I say is still taken as "sensor bias idiocy" ...but it's okay for them to completely discount our experiences as intuitives.

    There's nothing rational or fair about that.

    I think I have deliberately throughout this thread pointed out that differences can occur between S and N, F and T, TJs and FPs, etc. et al, ad nauseum.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    The "Ns discovered gravity and germs, bro." is definitely good ol anti-Sensor bias yeah I agree.

    Actually, on the scientific front, I think ISTPs, ISTJs, and ESTJs had a large part in its advancement.

    I mean according to this, the most popular major for ISTPs is biology, a hard science, and the most popular major for ESTJs is mechanical engineering. Although for ISTJs, it was Accounting, predictable.. heh.

    So have NTs made a disproportionate amount of scientific discovery compared to their amount in the population? Probably... (me thinking that might even be legit anti-S bias too, even if it might be true), but I want to add ISTPs, ISTJs, and ESTJs to the list of types that are underestimated in science.

    But other types like ISFPs and ESTPs, with Art being their most popular major, and an N type, ENFJs who favor the Communications major, science might not generally be for them.

    MBTI and Major Choice
    But telling Ns their experiences aren't real isn't anti-intuitive bias or anything.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    They can treat it as a good chance to learn about the way the world actually works. Sometimes, people actually expect you to be productive and practical. Certain aspects of the world function on deadlines, procedures, and attention to detail.

    It is what it is.
    This statement has nothing to do with S or N. Most children are expected to pay attention to detail and be productive and practical from at least the time they begin first grade, if not sooner in some cases. Give me a break.

    There are also spoiled sensor teenagers who have no idea "how the real world works" because their parents hand them everything, or they're sheltered...being "unaware of how the world works" isn't an Intuitive thing.

    This conversation has completely disintegrated into nonsense, in my opinion.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    This statement has nothing to do with S or N. Most children are expected to pay attention to detail and be productive and practical from at least the time they begin first grade, if not sooner in some cases. Give me a break.
    That's.. kind of exactly the point that I'm making. Everyone is expected to do these things from the get-go. It's the way things work.

    Maybe I don't understand what it is that some intuitives are feeling disenfranchised about, then, if it's not that they don't feel as though they have flexibility in their daily pursuits because of a perceived preexisting structure that limits them in ways that they see as completely arbitrary

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Why is being N such a terrible thing to grow up as? How is it more significant factor than being a T woman or an F male? How is it a more significant factor than growing up as a liberally-minded person among conservatives (NOT automatically the same thing as NP growing up among SJs, for the record)? Than growing up poor in a school with much wealthier children? Than being a minority ethnic and/or racial group compared to your peers? Than being highly intelligent compared to your peers? Than being LGTB-whatever in a heterosexual majority? Than being a xxxP growing up in a xxxJ world? An Ixxx growing up in an Exxx world?

    I don't understand? Why does this one trait (that half the time is hard to type in someone anyway) make so much more difference than the other 3 traits?
    IT'S NOT ANY DIFFERENT. At least, the principle is the same. Do you think that these other comparisons you're drawing are easy hands to be dealt? When you're comparing something to the way LGBTetc people are treated in a heteronormative society, don't you think there is a problem?!

    Personally, I would not even stretch the comparison that far. There are no anti-N hate crimes, etc. I would compare it to the T woman or F male. [Not that I want to suggest the gender people are perceived as is their actual gender in all cases. Not true. I hate this post now.] So I wonder, why are you acknowledging that living in our society as a T woman or an F male can be hard - I assume this is in fact what you're doing, since this is also compared to to the LGBT thing (quite frankly I think that's too strong too, but not being a T woman or F male I should STFU on that!) - but denying that the same is true for living as an N?

    I suspect that's because you're a T woman (right? I'm going to feel like an ass if I'm wrong lolz) but not an N. I am neither of course, being an SF. It is hard to see biases in your favour - they're invisible until pointed out.

    The whole idea of a social hierarchy implies exactly these things. I didn't think I would have to SPELL IT OUT in the OP by saying, oh right S/N P/J both of which I talked about, are not the only variables in the hierarchy. OBVIOUSLY there are lots of majorities that oppress minorities and much more severely. I made a hierarchy with two variables. If you count all possible variables there are MILLIONS (and I don't even pretend to be even remotely educated about these things...I am totally, completely blind and just barely aware of the world around me...to be honest)

    Just a note to say. Any anger in this post is not directed at you. You were/are respectful. Thanks for engaging me and others.

    hahah I think I just proved to myself that I indeed have Fi with the way I am defending my "point" in this thread
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  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    That's.. kind of exactly the point that I'm making. Everyone is expected to do these things from the get-go. It's the way things work.

    Maybe I don't understand what it is that some intuitives are feeling disenfranchised about, then, if it's not that they don't feel as though they have flexibility in their daily pursuits because of a perceived preexisting structure that limits them in ways that they see as completely arbitrary
    It isn't completely arbitrary that you've been told by various people in your life that you are "good at the wrong things" and "think about stupid shit" and "why are you going on about this nonsense" and "you are overly analytical" and that kind of thing.

    I'm past it now, but those are fucking fucked up things to say to people who you supposedly love, especially if it's a child in your care. And they happened to say those things to me because they genuinely thought my style of thinking and strengths were pointless and wrong.

    It would be no different than an Intuitive parent telling their Sensor child who loved to do nothing but play sports and socialize that they were a mindless idiot.

    There are worse things, yes but it's very detrimental to people's self-esteem if they hear it a lot...some people don't.

    MBTI/Jungian Intuition is not the same as metaphysics...I know quite a few sensing feelers who actively talk about being able to experience feeling someone else's feelings or "just knowing" things about people they love.

    It's nothing more than a nasty, superior attitude that some Sensors have, and then they wonder why sometimes Intuitives come on the forum and mirror their attitude.

    I DO NOT THINK ALL SENSORS ARE THIS WAY. I know they are not. And I've repeatedly pointed out that there are all kinds of disconnects, including the disconnect that can happen with me and Thinking types.

    It's funny that nobody gets butthurt when we acknowledge the disconnect between Thinkers and Feelers, or Fi/Fe, or Te/Ti...but boy, bring up the difference between S and N...

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    It's funny that nobody gets butthurt when we acknowledge the disconnect between Thinkers and Feelers, or Fi/Fe, or Te/Ti...but boy, bring up the difference between S and N...
    I wonder who's butt hurts more, S or N?





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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I wonder who's butt hurts more, S or N?




    I don't know. I'm sure each side thinks their pain is more real. Ah, such is human nature.

  9. #119
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    This discussion of N disenfranchisement has become completely incoherent, so I'm going to boil some important points down.

    1. No one has yet dismissed anyone else's experiences as not "real." I have yet to see anybody say anything remotely resembling, "nope, that didn't happen. You just made shit up for the hell of it."

    2. Interpretation of experiences is analytically separate from the fact of these experiences. That you felt like your mother did not value your aspirations in life is an experiential fact. Saying that it happened because your mother had control issues is an interpretation of that fact.

    3. While you can't argue with #1, you can argue with #2. It might not have had anything to do with your mother's control issues. Some other factor might exist that explains your experience more accurately.

    4. Saying that feelings of disenfranchisement in specific life instances is due to being an iNtuitive is an example of #2. It's an interpretation.

    5. Therefore, saying that it might not have anything to do with being an N is not a dismissal of the experience, but rather a questioning of the interpretation.

    6. No one has yet given a good argument as to how their examples of N disenfranchisement are a necessary consequence of being N in an S society. That is, if all else were equal in one of these unfavorable scenarios, why would an S be better off than an N?

    7. It is not clear that N or S traits can be ascribed to a society.

    8. Ns do not divine things from the ether.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I wonder who's butt hurts more, S or N?




    we may have to do a considerable amount of invasive measuring to find out...im sure there are a few out there who will be happy to lend a helping hand to this study...lol
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

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