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  1. #41
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    But if the girls have other options, why is it worthy of a shudder that they choose the pink because they like it? If they actively choose it, doesn't that negate the (dubious) taint of gender pigeonholing?
    Yes and no.

    Yes because as you say, if they like it, then what does it matter whether they are expected to like it or not?

    But no because there is still a whole mutual stereotype reinforcement going on. For example, why does Barbie's color have to be pink? Why is everything Barbie owns pink? Wouldn't the girls love Barbie and her stuff just as much if other colours were used as often as pink is? Same with the clothes: why do most girls' clothes have to be pink? Sure girls love pink, but it's not the ONLY color they like, is it?

    Or is it? See, that's my problem: by associating all girly stuff with pink, we reinforce girls' natural liking for pink to a point where it basically becomes a straight-jacket, and they can't even think of going for another colour anymore.

    I can't imagine anyone getting up in arms because boys like blue.
    How many boys have you known to have a fit because their new shirt is red or green instead of blue? Or to even refuse to wear the shirt because it's not the right color? How many boys do you know who insist on wearing one and only one color? And on having it plastered all over their bedroom too? How many boys do you know who can be sold almost anything and everything just by making it the right color? "Oh, it's blue, it's cool, I want it!" ?

    When I go to my son's kindergarten, there just isn't a color phenomenon for boys, that would be in any way similar to the Pink Explosion for girls. Boys wear all kinds of colors, and it's very rare to see a boy who would be wearing mostly just one color. So really, I don't think it's the same at all.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Wouldn't the girls love Barbie and her stuff just as much if other colours were used as often as pink is?



    When I go to my son's kindergarten, there just isn't a color phenomenon for boys, that would be in any way similar to the Pink Explosion for girls. Boys wear all kinds of colors, and it's very rare to see a boy who would be wearing mostly just one color. So really, I don't think it's the same at all.
    On Barby... no they wouldn't.

    On boys... sadly, most of their mothers do the picking and they never get asked. By the time they are asked, they've already been conditioned by society.

  3. #43

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    I guess in the end my point is that as long as you make sure other colors are present in the girl's wardrobe and environment early on, if she still gravitates to pink, it's no big deal. I understand what you're saying about pink having an ubiquitous "girl" taint regardless of an individual girl's preferences. But still, I think trying to guide the girl away from pink is just reinforcing that pink is girly and limiting, more so than if the girl wears pink of her own volition.

    It makes me wonder whether consciously avoiding stereotypical behavior is more constricting than engaging in stereotypical behavior of your own free will. Kind of like how some radical feminists don't like it when women stay at home to raise their children. Is that a stereotypical "1950s submissive wife" behavior? In a general sense, yes. But isn't it more a violation of that woman's independence to ask that she do otherwise for the sake of appearance instead of following her sincere preference?
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    "girl" taint regardless of an individual girl's preferences. But still, I think trying to guide the girl away from pink is just reinforcing that pink is girly and limiting, more so than if the girl wears pink of her own volition.

    It makes me wonder whether consciously avoiding stereotypical behavior is more constricting than engaging in stereotypical behavior of your own free will. Kind of like how some radical feminists don't like it when women stay at home to raise their children. Is that a stereotypical "1950s submissive wife" behavior? In a general sense, yes. But isn't it more a violation of that woman's independence to ask that she do otherwise for the sake of appearance instead of following her sincere preference?
    Exactly!

  5. #45
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    On Barby... no they wouldn't.
    But... Isn't that scary ?? I mean, how would we react to an adult who swore by only one color? "Oh, I found the cutest outfit, but it doesn't exist in yellow, so I didn't buy it." "I found the perfect car, but it wasn't orange, so no go." Wouldn't we think that they are being just a bit extreme? So why is it acceptable simply because it's little girls and pink?

    On boys... sadly, most of their mothers do the picking and they never get asked. By the time they are asked, they've already been conditioned by society.
    But the thing is: boys don't CARE. Girls do. A girl will go out of her way to convince her mom to buy the pink shirt instead of the green one, while the boy just won't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMWarner View Post
    It makes me wonder whether consciously avoiding stereotypical behavior is more constricting than engaging in stereotypical behavior of your own free will. Kind of like how some radical feminists don't like it when women stay at home to raise their children. Is that a stereotypical "1950s submissive wife" behavior? In a general sense, yes. But isn't it more a violation of that woman's independence to ask that she do otherwise for the sake of appearance instead of following her sincere preference?
    I see what you mean, but how would you react if 95% of modern women wanted the SAME thing (whether it be staying at home, or having a career or what not)? Wouldn't you think that somehow, somewhere, they must not REALLY have a choice?

    That's what I'm wondering. I can totally understand that for some unimaginable-to-me reason, little girls are somehow naturally attracted to pink. But it's the sheer *magnitude* of the Pink-O-Mania that disturbs me - that, and the fact that it is apparently socially acceptable and even supported.

  6. #46
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    [
    But... Isn't that scary ?? I mean, how would we react to an adult who swore by only one color? "Oh, I found the cutest outfit, but it doesn't exist in yellow, so I didn't buy it." "I found the perfect car, but it wasn't orange, so no go." Wouldn't we think that they are being just a bit extreme? So why is it acceptable simply because it's little girls and pink?

    Well, one color is a little unrealistic in an adult. But, yes, I've done that. I detest orange (there are reasons) and would pass up an outfit I liked because of color. Number one, it clashes with my natural coloring (also for a reason) but I also know and have proven in my own INTP experiments that certain colors have actual physical repercussions... good and bad in my opinion... so am very careful about the ones I wear or surround myself with. Industry/commercialism knows this and make it a point to choose wisely with a view to profits. There's a whole field of color psychology. You will find red in most successful restaurants for a reason and an absence of yellow also.

    But the thing is: boys don't CARE. Girls do. A girl will go out of her way to convince her mom to buy the pink shirt instead of the green one, while the boy just won't care.

    Yes they do. They just aren't paid as much attention to in the area of color by most parents.... from infants to toddlers. Were they, their preferences would be noted. As I said, parents don't pay attention to them until they've already been conditioned.

  7. #47
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    Wandering... I'm sorry I did the "blue" thing. I don't know how to type in a quote. I wish there was a help page here... or a more extensive one... also a practice thread would be nice.

  8. #48
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    Well, one color is a little unrealistic in an adult.
    Then why is it realistic in a kid ?

    But, yes, I've done that. I detest orange (there are reasons) and would pass up an outfit I liked because of color.
    That's not the same! Excluding one color from many, is not in any way similar to excluding all-but-one colors! Everyone has colors they don't like, and that's normal. But being fixated on one color only, that's what I find worrying.

    Yes they do. They just aren't paid as much attention to in the area of color by most parents.... from infants to toddlers. Were they, their preferences would be noted. As I said, parents don't pay attention to them until they've already been conditioned.
    Conditioned into what, though ? If anything, it seems like boys are conditioned into not caring about what color they are wearing... Which in my mind isn't anywhere as bad as being conditioned to love one and only one color...

    And of course: if boys can indeed be conditioned into not caring about a particular color, then why can't girls be too??

    Oh, and your feeble excuses won't fool me. I *know* you did the blue thing on purpose

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    I see what you mean, but how would you react if 95% of modern women wanted the SAME thing (whether it be staying at home, or having a career or what not)? Wouldn't you think that somehow, somewhere, they must not REALLY have a choice?
    Actually, the ubiquity of it is what makes me comfortable with it. The fact that 95% want it, instead of let's say, 70%, make me feel that there must be a reason for it, even if I'm not enough of an anthropologist to say what that reason is. 70% says it's a trendy thing that might be adopted for the wrong reasons. But if 95% of them are inexorably drawn to it, then I can't see how a negative connotation can be ascribed to it. Think of anything that 95% of people love...be it the Beatles, sunny weather, or chocolate chip cookies. Wouldn't it sound very odd to suggest that their preferences are stereotypical? I'd say that instead they are universal. Stereotypical and universal are two different things.

    I realize I have no evidence for any of this...it strikes me on more of a gut level.
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  10. #50
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Well said, FMW.

    I haven't really observed OMGPINKILUVU so much in my dealings with my daughter and her peers. The ones that like pink, even if they REALLY like pink, aren't so hung up on pink that they won't wear any other colors. Some of them are dogmatic in the other direction ("Pink?! I HATE pink! Anyone who wears pink is a girly girl and not awesome like me!").
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