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  1. #151
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    If you want to drill down that far, aren't we human first, then subcategorically women?
    Yes. Got that. Women are humans. What I'm talking about, though, is the experience of being a woman, not only high heels and dresses and make-up. What do you feel you experience as a woman that is unique (or separate from the experience of) being a man? Is there any difference in experience, other than the physical obvious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I choose lipgloss, scented lotion, and cats for myself. I take issue with you saying I do not. I could choose to not wear make-up, or to love dogs, or to paint my face with white clown make-up every day if I wanted to.

    But strawberry lipgloss is the bomb.
    Wasn't even my point, Marm.

    It must be really hard to be an INFP. It seems so tiring to me.
    No, not especially. But I guess self-criticism doesn't come easily (or at all) to some people. Translation: this has nothing to do with my type.


    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Could you give some examples of what you mean here?

    I'm thinking that if we've assigned the things ourselves, is it not expressing "me" rather than "woman"? Like I can say "I love being able to appreciate a sunset" but I can't say "I love being a woman because I can appreciate sunsets because I'm a woman" because that makes no sense....you know?

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?
    Yes, but gender identity is a part of that essential (human) identity not necessarily of itself but because of the kinds of experiences that come with it. Meaning, I'm not taking an essentialist stance on "womanhood" (since I don't believe "gender" exists outside of some arbitrary cultural construction), but because of its significance in a sex/gender system, which reinforces gender norms in an infinite number of ways, an identity forms around those shared experiences. Is that any clearer?

    I think I may be touching on the idea of "femininities" without really meaning to...

  2. #152
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I choose lipgloss, scented lotion, and cats for myself. I take issue with you saying I do not. I could choose to not wear make-up, or to love dogs, or to paint my face with white clown make-up every day if I wanted to.

    But strawberry lipgloss is the bomb.







    It must be really hard to be an INFP. It seems so tiring to me.
    You know in a discussion the side that becomes snotty after a while, is the one too which is always in the wrong.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #153
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Yes. Got that. Women are humans. What I'm talking about, though, is the experience of being a woman, not only high heels and dresses and make-up. What do you feel you experience as a woman that is unique (or separate from the experience of) being a man? Is there any difference in experience, other than the (phsyical) obvious?
    That's a great question.

    I'm just not sure how the majority of people can answer that, though, since they only know what it means to be one or the other.
    (Aside from lots of deep communication between gender groups, to share that information with each other>)

    Yes, but gender identity is a part of that essential (human) identity not necessarily of itself but because of the kinds of experiences that come with it. Meaning, I'm not taking an essentialist stance on "womanhood" (since I don't believe "gender" exists outside of some arbitrary cultural construction), but because of its significance in a sex/gender system, which reinforces gender norms in an infinite number of ways, an identity forms around those shared experiences. Is that any clearer?
    Well, I disagree with the non-inherent argument in that I think there are physical/bio/chem differences that then contribute indirectly to some of the observed differences, but I think culture takes those and greatly builds on them, so a large part of what we perceive as "gender" is culturally constructed.

    The comment about identity forming around culturally constructed shared experiences, though, is pretty on-mark.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #154
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I disagree with the non-inherent argument in that I think there are physical/bio/chem differences that then contribute indirectly to some of the observed differences, but I think culture takes those and greatly builds on them, so a large part of what we perceive as "gender" is culturally constructed.
    Yes, I agree with that as well. There are hormonal, chemical differences that inherently distinguish males from females and females from males, but I don't think those differences are as profound as our culture would like us to believe.

  5. #155
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Yes. Got that. Women are humans. What I'm talking about, though, is the experience of being a woman, not only high heels and dresses and make-up. What do you feel you experience as a woman that is unique (or separate from the experience of) being a man? Is there any difference in experience, other than the physical obvious?



    Wasn't even my point, Marm.



    No, not especially. But I guess self-criticism doesn't come easily (or at all) to some people. Translation: this has nothing to do with my type.




    Yes, but gender identity is a part of that essential (human) identity not necessarily of itself but because of the kinds of experiences that come with it. Meaning, I'm not taking an essentialist stance on "womanhood" (since I don't believe "gender" exists outside of some arbitrary cultural construction), but because of its significance in a sex/gender system, which reinforces gender norms in an infinite number of ways, an identity forms around those shared experiences. Is that any clearer?

    I think I may be touching on the idea of "femininities" without really meaning to...
    Can you give some examples of how this has played out for you? I still don't really understand where you're going with this. Do you mean something like, you've experienced bias or something, so now you're a more X person?

    If so, I'm also not really sure how this is all that different from the things that other people have shared in the thread. Most of them are related to growing up in a female culture.
    -end of thread-

  6. #156
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Yes. Got that. Women are humans. What I'm talking about, though, is the experience of being a woman, not only high heels and dresses and make-up. What do you feel you experience as a woman that is unique (or separate from the experience of) being a man? Is there any difference in experience, other than the physical obvious?
    Neptune, that's not a logical consistency to argue that besides points x, y, z, what's different between genders. It's like saying, besides the accidents that occur while driving, what's so dangerous about driving?

    Everyone is a combination of nature and nurture where the science such as neurology or the pseudo sciences such as psychology and sociology, are in their infancy stages. We know there are biological differences between genders and that some of the differences aren't necessarily sex hormone related. We don't have a complete picture of how these differences, sexual hormone driven or not, impact on behaviours.

    My personal unsubstantiated belief is that there is something physically different about many gays, transgenders, lesbians, etc., that it's only a matter of time before they isolate the reasons why. This doesn't negate my other belief that there are some who are solely different due to foundational nurture. The difficulty in finding these biological differences might be difficulty in isolating the ones who are biologically different from those who are technically "created" by nurture. And there's danger in doing so, since a subset of society would then believe the "created" ones need to be fixed through psycho-analysis and the biological ones should be fixed through some form of chemical or hormonal treatment, in order to gender standardise.

    I also believe that while there are differences, in this technological age, that those differences shouldn't impact on laws surrounding equality. There should be no legal barriers to any gender with the necessary skills, the ability to accomplish their goals. But I also believe that there shouldn't be gender compensation if the individual doesn't have the skills. Can't cut it, then you're out.

    I also don't much care for gender whining when it comes to social inequality. Just do it since you're the only person that's limiting yourself. If someone treats you like crap (illegal abuse aside), why do you allow it? If there are some of the gender you're attracted to who aren't attracted to you, why not focus on the ones that are attracted to you, instead of doing the generalised victim whining of "da' men" or "da' wimmins" are holding me down? We each have the freedom to make choices and take actions in our lives. We also each have the responsibilities associated to those actions. And even when we don't make choices or take actions, there's a price to be paid for passivity.

    Sorry, I've kind of meandered around by thinking out loud. What you appear to be looking for is the meaning of being a woman in generalised terms that doesn't include sex hormone or culturally defined differences. What this thread is about, is what you love about being a woman through individual experiences, at any depth or no depth at all if you only want to have some fun.

    Femininity is the quality of being feminine. The definition of feminine is "of or relating to girls or women". Neither definition abrogates individual experience and individuality.

  7. #157
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Neptune, that's not a logical consistency to argue that besides points x, y, z, what's different between genders.
    Why is it no logical consistency when she feels that for her there are more things besides the points x,y,z. If you can imagine it, it does exist. And in this case she's not even alone with in her imagination.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #158
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Why is it no logical consistency when she feels that for her there are more things besides the points x,y,z. If you can imagine it, it does exist. And in this case she's not even alone with in her imagination.
    besides the accidents that occur while driving, what's so dangerous about driving?
    Answer this question first.

  9. #159
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Answer this question first.
    I dont really understand the question, I dont think driving is dangerous
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #160
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I dont really understand the question, I dont think driving is dangerous
    Substantiate your belief, since motor vehicle accidents happen with substantial frequencies. Bet pretty much everyone has experienced at least one motor vehicle accident in their lives whether they're at fault or not.

    Entropie, methinks you're just stirring the pot like most other ENTP males NEED to.

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