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  1. #81
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Honesty and assertiveness might have short-term negative consequences, but long-term benefits. Confronting a painful moment in therapy, for example, is ugly and difficult, but ultimately rewarding. I think a fear of things getting ugly and people getting hurt is what drives dynamics like these. The people who I consider the best healers, however, are those who actually confront people and address their issues from a position of security and allow things to get a bit ugly, rather than sweeping that ugliness under a rug. (By the way, this isn't a personal attack on you, just an observation.)
    Well, I already am quite aware of all of that dynamic you mention. I think the problem is when it is inappropriately applied. This isn't a therapeutic group, this is an open-member forum comprised of many types of people whose backgrounds are relatively unknown, so I'm not sure why you think of applying a therapeutic model to it.

    And the only reason negative feedback appears more on INTPc is not because people there are more into self-improvement but people simply shrug off more of the emotional and personal implications of potentially critical statements.

    I also don't know if a comparison to a group of people sitting in a circle really does justice to the complexity and depth of the relationships at this site. It's really hard to find an matching real-life setting to even begin to draw comparisons. I don't read the blogs of all my friends, and I don't have discussions with them about their personal lives and fears to the same degree I do with people on this site.
    I am still not quite sure what you're getting at. In general, open criticism of other people has to occur in a very controlled circumstance in order for it to have positive results. (Usually this is why it occurs in smaller and more private settings -- because friends have earned the right to criticize their friends, because their loyalty and love is not really in question.)

    The criticism might not go over well, but it's expression is important nonetheless, wouldn't you agree? Criticism serves both the source and the target. Otherwise this place'll turn into PassiveAggressiveCentral. Yikes.
    Of course I agree. It just seems that you'd be more apt to throw it like a hand grenade into the middle of an open forum... which to me is the closest analogy here. Criticism actually can cause a lot more harm than good, if not presented in a way that the recipient can actually swallow and respond to in a positive and creative way. "Open Season" thus tends to be one of my less-preferred methods. It only works if everyone is fairly impersonal to begin with and can easily shrug off negative emotions in order to simply view (and accept or reject) the content of the criticism.

    Have you ever sat through a constructive criticism class in creative writing? Good lord -- there the people actually are warned AND expect it... and it's still an ugly business. Now imagine a larger group of people pointing out each other's moral and personal flaws. Even if you prep them, it's still usually more harmful than positive.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    It definitely a lot "cooler" to be atheistic or agnostic.
    Is it?

    I guess in some circles it could be.

    But I have a lot of admiration for people with strong faiths. I only take issue when they put others down for not sharing it or when they insinuate they are superior (morally or otherwise) because of their particular religious beliefs.

    Funny how 70 years ago, a person would have been ashamed to admit such a thing.
    That's very true.

    Of course, back then, basically you still just had a smaller core of true believers, while everyone else was doing lip service because they knew it was social and political suicide to admit they were agnostics or didn't believe in God at all. (Even today, in the environment you describe, there is a high percentage of people who would not vote for a president who openly claimed to not believe in God; and one of Mitt Romney's greatest weaknesses is that he is a Mormon, which is still labeled as a cult in some Christian circles.)

    It was basically a veneer, and I'm not sure which I prefer better.

    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    I'm for avatar freedom myself . . .
    Yes! "Free the avatars!"
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #82
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    It definitely a lot "cooler" to be atheistic or agnostic.
    Funny how 70 years ago, a person would have been ashamed to admit such a thing.
    :)
    Consider the following...

    Yes, let's go back to the 50s. I am white and I ask some white people in a bus whether they'd consider giving up their seats for an elderly black man. They scoff at me for even having suggested the idea, and refuse. Blasphemous talk.

    Back to today. I ask the same question to similar people. They don't really understand where I come from, and say of course. They don't really entertain any thoughts about me.

    Without this story-frame, I ask the same question to the members of this board, MBTIcentral. Would they consider giving up their seat for an elderly black man? They are confused -- why am I even asking it? Of course they would! Do I have no idea? Some of them even hiddenly entertain the notion that I might be a racist in disguise, replying to me in a way as to reflect this suspicion -- after all, surely the question has been voiced for a reason? They guess as to what my motivation might be, and write me probing replies. Hidden judgments, idle curiosity, moral panic. In the bottom of it all lies a wealth of faithfully inherited values. No one is entirely free of them, but no one is guilty, either. But nor are we innocent.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Nadir; 02-24-2008 at 05:29 PM. Reason: Some matters of word-editing
    Not really.

  3. #83
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Hmm.

    The social norm is a curve of quantity/quality displacement that seems to be turning, over time, into a sine wave.

  4. #84
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    @Geoff

    ?

    explain.
    we fukin won boys

  5. #85
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I don't think that it's nesissarily "cool" to be atheistic or agnostic- it's just that some of the more vocal members who post in religion threads happen to be atheistic or agnostic. If a post is well thought out and religious it would be received positively as well- I see that happen quite frequently!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #86
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Oh, I have some more observations:

    "Post-whoring" and the over-use of emoticons are looked down upon.

  7. #87
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Yeah but because the majority trend seems to favour non-religiousness, many who might post on the side of faith don't bother, having experienced a general lack of sympathy or respect for their views. *points to self*

    I know it doesn't take much for me to get sick and tired of being patronized and told what I think and why I believe and how stupid all my thoughts and views are when all I'm trying to do is to give my honest answer to someone's seemingly genuine question.

    If you can imagine a telephone conversation like this:

    RING RING!
    Hello?
    Hello?
    Um, yeah, hello?
    Hello, is that John?
    Yes, Ringo is that you?
    Yeah.
    (pause)
    Ringo?
    Yeah?
    Well... what did you want?
    Um... just to talk
    Um, okay...
    Say something then
    Well I don't know, I was just watching my favourite show on TV and you called, I assumed you had something in mind that you were going to say...
    No John, I had nothing in mind. Why, haven't you got anything to say?
    Well, okay... well, I just got back from France...
    France? Oh ffs, as if I want to hear about you going to stupid France! You know it's a stupid place to go, why do you have to go on about France?
    Um... well Ringo, I don't know what you want me to say... so I just figured I'd share what I did recently since you wanted me to say something?
    FFS John you're such an idiot! Come back when you have something useful to say!! [hangs up]

    Well, that's kinda how it feels to me to be a person of faith trying to express that here.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #88
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Sorry Mav (and other offended, but unnamed parties) about the previous multiple posts, so many to catch up on. You guys have been busy today!

    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    That's funny what some of you say about personal picture avatars. I participate in a couple of other forums that are personal and social like this one and in both cases personal pics as avatars are the norm or at least very common. I had mine up for about a week here, then felt too self-conscious about it and took it down. I think the reason many people like them is simply as a way of getting to know who you are talking to and putting a face with a name. Nothing to do with showing off or being narcissistic it's simply a 'getting to know you' thing - along the same lines as knowing someone's sex, and approximate age.
    I definitely like them, though I wouldn't post one myself because of my strong desire to remain anonymous. I would be mortified if someone IRL read my postings just because I reveal more of myself here than I would IRL, unless they were an extremely close friend.

    Case in point, I did post a partial pic of myself in my profile to give some idea of "who I am". Hopefully, no one who knows me can identify me from the picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    The more you post without saying something stupid (or sometimes, even saying stupid things), the more people are going to associate you with the forum. I know there are some people who's posts I will almost never take the time to read, and some people who I will read most of what they write.

    Also, personal communications builds a lot of favoritism between people (not saying that's a bad thing). If I trade a ton of PMs and Reps with someone then I am probably going to be more likely to pay attention to what they write, rather than someone I hardly ever communicate with in posts. Being greeted in the introduction forum, or complimented is a big factor too...partially why Economica was like the first person I really talked to on here.
    I agree with all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Other observations about the way that things seem to work around here-
    ...
    there are powerful members and less powerful members here- people usually obtain power by carefully cultivating their relationships with other members and by posting a lot- there are people who resent this of course- and yes- you don't ever mention what members may sway a discussion- that's somehow considered rude- it's also not a good idea to insult one of these members, as others will usually jump to their defense
    ...
    See this is where my dreaded feelings of being socially inept kick in.
    I am so terrible at knowing - especially in a place like this - who has the power and who doesn't. I mean basically I know the mods are powerful by virtue of what they do, but the rest of the members... I'm lost.

    All I know is whose writing I understand and enjoy, who has been nice to me, who has been rude, who I feel like avoiding, who I feel a kindred connection to for one reason or another.



    I think this is related to the OP:

    INTJs are so inept at socio-political stuff. That's why being on a forum is somewhat safer than real life. On one hand, I find it easier to embarrass myself here, but it's also a little easier to live down. And if I offend someone, at least they don't know where I live, and they can't hurt me.

    Whenever I go to a new forum, I always read the rules and intend not to violate them.
    It's not in my nature or ability to read the unwritten rules; irl, unwritten rules make me feel uncomfortable and unsafe.
    If I get my hand slapped too many times, I just go somewhere else because I don't feel safe.
    It reminds me too much of my childhood and being punished for things that were not declared to be against the rules until one of my parents was in a bad enough mood to make it so.

  9. #89
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    We don't always know when it is an avatar of themselves. Splittet's avatar is a picture of himself but I didn't know that until quite recently. There are so many actors and musicans and scientists and stuff, pictures of whom people use as avatars and people I've never heard of, that when I see a human face as an avatar I assume that's what it is. That's what I thought Splittet's was until he said it was himself. Even so I don't think he could be accused of trying to get attention or earn respect through it rather than his posts.

    I've considered using an avatar of myself as well, simply because I feel it'd encourage me to feel more 'direct'. I haven't done it though because I figured that it'd be taken as has been suggested above, though that wouldn't have been my intention. I like to talk to people face to face, I think most extraverts do, and I think that might have something to do with some of us liking the idea of a self-portrait avatar. I can't say for certain though.

    I think one of the problems here might be that because the majority are typically non-social types, there's a general lack of understanding or sympathy for the needs, motivations and thought patterns of typically social types, and that lack of understanding tends to also lead to a certain judgementalism and demonizing of those motivations and actions.

    Such as for example, somebody just having a genuine sympathy for someone and standing up for them being interpreted as them trying to get glory for themselves as a 'Mother Theresa' character as suggested by Dana, or someone just wanting to be open and frank or to add a personal touch to their posts, and feeling that a self-portrait contributes to that being interpreted as shallow and trying to get attention for their appearance rather than post content. Someone innocently reaching out to encourage or affirm one person gets interpreted as their cultivating an inner circle in order to exclude another person. I do think that a lot of these accusations fly around due to as I say, a general incomprehension on the part of non-sociable people, of the way sociable people really work and think and behave.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #90
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    another convention here-

    whenever a thread like this is started simply asking a question, plenty of people will see it as an excellent excuse to bitch and put others down :sad: This is kind of funny because these people are pleasant to one another outside of threads asking questions about forum health!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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