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  1. #101
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Isolation by choice is entirely different than isolation by force.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Isolation by choice is entirely different than isolation by force.
    True, but once you choose to be isolated, it is then a little hard to be forced into it by others.

    I'm getting tired, I can't think straight. I think I should retire for the evening.

  3. #103
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    they can still do stuff.
    Are you aware that there are actually very extensive crime rings established even within multi-prison systems?
    i was waiting for that one

    yeah, that's a good point.

    i still don't think we should kill them all for being in crime rings.

    but our disagreement really doesn't come down to logic here anyways. it's just different premises.

  4. #104
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm too pragmatic to care about making people suffer for something. I just want them out of the way.
    I feel the same way. It's impractical to think we should put a costly system in place just to ensure that people suffer. I just want to be safe and I want the people around me to be safe. What happens to that guy. . . I couldn't care less.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    but our disagreement really doesn't come down to logic here anyways. it's just different premises.
    It's politics, the one academic subject where we can forget logic!

  6. #106
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    It's politics, the one academic subject where we can forget logic!
    i wish i could forget logic...

  7. #107
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    but our disagreement really doesn't come down to logic here anyways. it's just different premises.
    I'm going to have to agree.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #108
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I just came across this image on Wikipedia.

    A macaque in a laboratory cage...so alone.

    Shit, I'm crying as I type this.....

    I dunno, why I think it's so sad.
    It's hard to look at that picture.

    Some years back my husband and I were at the Oakland zoo where I saw a small monkey in a cage by himself. He was very depressed and made no eye contact. Seeing him made me quite sad.

    Humans have a lot to answer for in the way we treat animals that should be living in the wild.

    Jae Rae
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  9. #109
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    interesting topic to come out of a single posting of a macaque in a cage.

    many fields of thoughts going on in here. Let me see if i can organise it...

    1) The issue of a fitting punishment for the crime:

    If not a life for a life, then, what is acceptable?

    Two schools of thought here: that prisoners deserve their rights; and the opposing school, which believes that if a person murders and rapes, he deserves death. And that government as the legal and ultimate authority of the land has the right to execute that.

    (remember too: government was chosen by the people. Hence, it presumably speaks for the greater good.)

    Caveats: What if you convict a person wrongly?

    2) Rights.

    What rights does a man who took another's life and happiness have? Should he be allowed to sit comfortably in jail, while the family of the deceased have to go on in the aftermath of violence?

    3) Double standards.

    Why is killing by soldiers right, while killing by murderers etc (civilians) judged on a different scale?

    4) Childhood as cause for empathy.

    May note here that statistically, most paedophiles, rapists and murderers come from abusive/alcoholic/violent backgrounds. many were victims themselves too.

    The homicidial triad, by FBI profilling: bed wetting, cruelty to animals, pyromania.

    A fourth: the decapitation and mutilation of dolls. Esp barbie dolls.

    most serial murderers will exhibit at least two of the above.

    It is a cause for empathy (to me), cos they have never managed to escape their past. And the tragedy is that they perpetuate it on the next generation. Does it excuse them? Certainly not. but it is grounds for mitigation.

    In the law, there is justice, there is also mercy. Mitigation is the clause that allows a plea for mercy.

    5) The functions of imprisonment/laws:

    -as deterrence for future crimes--hence, the stricter the punishment, the more ostensibly it deters people from committing crimes.

    -as rehabilitation--for the prisoners

    -punishment--an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

    -incapacitation---put them away from the public.

    ---------

    In response to hexis point:

    Am a (generall) mild mannered INTP. but if anyone were to kill/rape/hurt the people i love, then frankly, I too would not be content with the person just comfortably sitting in jail, and likely getting out after 10 years or so. (For most federal prison systems, due to overcrowding, life sentences are in effect paroled. Most get out after a decade or so. They're free.)

    I would want to make sure he burns in hell, and pays back for every bit of life he took.

    So sue me, extremely violent. but that, too, is my right. People should NOT get off lightly for violence they have done on the innocent. Malaysia recently had a case, where a 2 year old girl was raped to death; to the point that her intestines were perforated. Her naked body was found bruised and broken in the woods. You tell me the guy(s) deserve empathy?

    And frankly, most people would say prisoners deserve to live etcetc...but if their loved ones were harmed, when the scenario turns personal, most would take a different tune.

    Eg, the Bali bombings, which killed mostly Australian tourists. Most Australians are against the death penalty. But when asked if Abu Baker Basheer should get the death penality, more than 75% of Australians said yes.

    So why the double standard?

    think about it.

    and with this, elfie believes she's opened a can of worms.

    debate on, little ones.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  10. #110
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm going to have to agree.
    spongie!

    i'm going to have to agree too, though.

    and yes. In response to Jae Rae. I was in England once. One of the castles. They kept an aviary there. There was this macaw, a gorgeous one called George. He just stood at the edge of his cage, looking so sad. (you never thought a bird could look depressed. )

    turns out he used to be kept by an old couple, who gave him away. The bird thinks he's human, so he refuses to mix with other birds. And only talks to people. He doesn't think of himself as a bird. So he always stays away from the other birds, and hangs on close to the fence, where he can be closest to people.

    odd world...
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

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