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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse View Post
    Can you sew?
    Yes but if I fixed it for him I wouldn't be able to enjoy my little guilt.
    I gues my dilemma wasn't really valid since a real dilemma requires that you feel torn about something. Perhaps I'll fix it when the thrill of being bad has faded a bit more.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Exactly. Fixing it would indicate guilt.

    The cat obviously scratched a hole in the robe.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Take 6.97 and give it to a homeless person on the street.

    I would probably end up doing something like that. Maybe not to a homeless guy, but give a nice tip next time I bought something.

  4. #54
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    Default Ok, I've got a real moral dilemma.

    I watched "Medicine Man" (a pretty lousy movie with Sean Connery). Anyway, he found a cure for cancer but only has one medication sample to do rescearch on. Problem is, he can't figure out what makes the cancer medication work. He lives out in the jungle and one of the children in the willage he lives in is dying from cancer. In the movie, the woman he works with gives the child the last medication sample and saves his life. At the same time, she also potentially takes a medication which could save million of lives around the world and gives it to that one child.

    Here are some of my thoughts afterwards:
    1. Idiot, that medicine could have saved million of lives. You can't allow yourself to take what belongs to everyone and give it to one person.

    2. If it had been my child, I would have probably done it without a second thought and there's no universal law saying that a cure for cancer belongs to everyone.

    3. Why save lives if the first place. The human race in large numbers is a plague and the rest of the species on this earth would potentially be better off if there were less of us.

    4. Big picture thinking. Being only able to comprehend 3 dimensions - what do I know about appropriate/inappropriate, right/wrong, good/bad in the first place. Every year I take my cat to the vet for a vaccine - he perceives me as mean. First I place him in the cat carrier, which he hate, then I drive him to the vet who takes out a needle and stick it in his butt. I perceive my action as good/appropriate since I understand the value of a vaccine - he perceives my action as bad/inappropriate because he don't.

    In the big picture, I only understand some of the things which goes on on a 3 dimension level i.e. my understanding of life will allways be limited compared to existing or non-existing beings who understands what's beyond the 3 dimension level. What's the point in trying to do good when chances are I'll never be able to understand what appropriate/good is?

    Mind you, these are not the ramblings of a depressed person. This is how I normally think and this is also why my perceptions of good/bad are so blurry.
    Verbal IQ Test

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    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  5. #55
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park
    4. Big picture thinking. Being only able to comprehend 3 dimensions - what do I know about appropriate/inappropriate, right/wrong, good/bad in the first place. Every year I take my cat to the vet for a vaccine - he perceives me as mean. First I place him in the cat carrier, which he hate, then I drive him to the vet who takes out a needle and stick it in his butt. I perceive my action as good/appropriate since I understand the value of a vaccine - he perceives my action as bad/inappropriate because he don't.
    This is what it comes down to... the basic structure of knowledge, the core concept of what makes humans different. What you are looking at in your first two thoughts is similar to the cat's reaction... you realise something is wrong with your perspective around that time.

    3. Why save lives if the first place. The human race in large numbers is a plague and the rest of the species on this earth would potentially be better off if there were less of us.
    This is the start of the next step of morality - calculation. This is a attempt to justify any action taken and read into it the reaching consequences. Here you are actively questioning the moral basis quantity of "life" as a measuring stick. This begins the shift in perspective.

    1. Idiot, that medicine could have saved million of lives. You can't allow yourself to take what belongs to everyone and give it to one person.

    2. If it had been my child, I would have probably done it without a second thought and there's no universal law saying that a cure for cancer belongs to everyone.
    And here we have the basic reactions: the needs of the many and the needs of the one. Both are primal reactions and are just component of evolutionary biology.

    In the big picture, I only understand some of the things which goes on on a 3 dimension level i.e. my understanding of life will allways be limited compared to existing or non-existing beings who understands what's beyond the 3 dimension level. What's the point in trying to do good when chances are I'll never be able to understand what appropriate/good is?
    A simple answer is that while the cat might not like the vaccine and is actively ready to harm himself for a lack of understanding, chances are that his behavior is a result of protecting himself as well as he could. Just because he is unable to grasp this particular situation doesn't mean he is generally wrong!

    It's a framework of thought, the defining characteristic of humans, that allow us to achieve what we do. Like the cat, it's the process that governs us... In the bigger picture just working on the moral issues causes us to be human - it's a result of our own nature, just as the cat struggling defines it (compared to a dog). We need these moral problems, just as the cat needs its boundaries and governance on how it should act. It's what makes cats cats, dogs dogs and humans human!

    We are just one step above them and instead of being 1+2, we tend to go to 3+4. A long time ago, however, we were at 1+2... development takes time, and it's not on the evolutionary scale. People do get smarter over time, knowledge does build... and that's why we do it and why it is important to do it.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    A simple answer is that while the cat might not like the vaccine and is actively ready to harm himself for a lack of understanding, chances are that his behavior is a result of protecting himself as well as he could. Just because he is unable to grasp this particular situation doesn't mean he is generally wrong!

    It's a framework of thought, the defining characteristic of humans, that allow us to achieve what we do. Like the cat, it's the process that governs us... In the bigger picture just working on the moral issues causes us to be human - it's a result of our own nature, just as the cat struggling defines it (compared to a dog). We need these moral problems, just as the cat needs its boundaries and governance on how it should act. It's what makes cats cats, dogs dogs and humans human!

    We are just one step above them and instead of being 1+2, we tend to go to 3+4. A long time ago, however, we were at 1+2... development takes time, and it's not on the evolutionary scale. People do get smarter over time, knowledge does build... and that's why we do it and why it is important to do it.
    Thanks .
    Perhaps my problem is that my conscience isn't very well-functioning and the same goes for my moral. I don't have many fixed opinions about many things in life. Most of the times I just have a variety of angles which I try to place a value on but I often get lost during the process. I gues this is also why I'm fashinated (and also sometimes annoyed) by strong Fs - especially FJs. It seems so much easier for their conscience to reach a quick conclusion than it does for NTPs and it's distracting for me to get my line of thoughts interrupted by a strong emotional opinion before I'm finished thinking. It is strange that my conscience is so poorly developed though because I do have a fairly welldeveloped Fi - perhaps that's the problem. Unfinished opinions about right and wrong gets stucked between Fi and Ti and often don't make it to the other end.

    I like your conclusion, it definetly contains more hope than anything I've been able to come up with myself. It will take me some time to figure out if I find it valid enough to embrace it as my own - it's not my decision anyway, my mind will keep twisting and turning it until it decides that it fits in to the rest of the logic system, you know how it works...but sofar it partly *feels* right.

    The only objection my mind can come up with is that the smarter humans become - the more overall damage we create and the damage seem to spread faster than the constructive things we use our knowledge for. Hehe but then again, in the big picture - what do I know. I can only choose to believe that encreased knowledge is a possible path to the best outcome.

    Would choosing not to - be the same as choosing not to believe in humans? I gues so, it is what we naturally seem to strive for.
    Verbal IQ Test

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  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I watched "Medicine Man" (a pretty lousy movie with Sean Connery). Anyway, he found a cure for cancer but only has one medication sample to do rescearch on. Problem is, he can't figure out what makes the cancer medication work. He lives out in the jungle and one of the children in the willage he lives in is dying from cancer. In the movie, the woman he works with gives the child the last medication sample and saves his life. At the same time, she also potentially takes a medication which could save million of lives around the world and gives it to that one child.
    From a simplistic, pragmatic POV:

    1) If it was discovered once, it has the potential to be discovered again.
    2) The man/scientists should have some idea on how the cure originated.
    3) By testing the child, researchers may in fact be able to recall the cure.
    4) It's unlikely one cure attacks all cancerous cells.

    Essentially, no real-life scenario would probably be as stark and absolute as the above situation.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    From a simplistic, pragmatic POV:

    1) If it was discovered once, it has the potential to be discovered again.
    2) The man/scientists should have some idea on how the cure originated.
    3) By testing the child, researchers may in fact be able to recall the cure.
    4) It's unlikely one cure attacks all cancerous cells.

    Essentially, no real-life scenario would probably be as stark and absolute as the above situation.
    Yes, it was a movie about moral dilemmas, nothing more.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  9. #59
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    1. Drive towards the store, palpably anguished.

    2. Put your right headlight into a tree on someone's government lawn.

    3. Sue the store for damages.

    4. Purchase said item with new funds.

    Edit: As per MacGuffin's remark, both Wolf and NAPG act like ISTJs, possibly unhealthy, in the state that Isabel Briggs-Myers described as "spontaneous expression to [an] inner perception."

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