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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Indeed-ipty-do. My INFJ sis always gets an annoyed look on her face and impatiently asks why me and my mother must argue all the time, my mum and I break from the rousing debate we were totally enjoying and look at each other confused. What one sees as conflict another can see as thought provoking.
    wait...arguments are thought provoking?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    It depends on who's arguing.

  3. #33
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't really mind conflict if it seems to be accomplishing a purpose. If not, then I find it emotionally draining and unsettling. If I know that both people arguing are truly enjoying it and that it is not encroaching on anyone else, then I don't really care what they do. If it involves me, I want to be pretty sure that there is something useful that's going to come out of going through all that - better understanding of each other, problem resolved, allows us to interact civilly or happily, allows me to get the work done that I need to do, prevents me from getting ulcers etc. Aside from that, I want no part of it.

    Watching it, on the other hand, is always entertaining, unless of course they are people that I am closely attached to.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I've always thought rude and witty banter was hilarious, since I was a child. I've always thought a certain kind of arguing was funny, as long as there is some restraint to it.

    The problem comes when one or both parties get out of hand with personal garbage.
    I like it. It's a good way to get to know people.

  5. #35
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    I don't mind as long as it is done in an cerebral, clever or cuntish manner.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  6. #36
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    wait...arguments are thought provoking?
    Debates are, arguments to me involve yelling and/or no interest in hearing the other person, debates challenge a persons beliefs while allowing yourself to have your beliefs challenged. I rarely argue, there's no point. If someone listening to be have a debate believes I'm arguing, that's their misunderstanding and issue.

    ... It's only my issue if that person is the person I believe I'm debating with

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Debates are, arguments to me involve yelling and/or no interest in hearing the other person, debates challenge a persons beliefs while allowing yourself to have your beliefs challenged. I rarely argue, there's no point. If someone listening to be have a debate believes I'm arguing, that's their misunderstanding and issue.

    ... It's only my issue if that person is the person I believe I'm debating with
    Oh, argueing is fun and challenging to get the other person to see your side of things...especially when you have to slowly manipulate your side to come to a consensus that makes both parties right. I am always right!!!!!!! The argument itself provokes thought, but not really the debate side of it for me. Just discussing things normally works better for me, else it becomes a fun challenge.

  8. #38
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Some people would say arguing (well, debating) is the whole point of a forum. But yes, it does degenerate into personal attacks or faulty/subjective reasoning far more often than I would like.

    Some people actually like this, others are drawn into it by an emotional reaction. Some people are verrrry sensitive to their ideas being challenged. Others have a viewpoint (and/or expresses it in a way) that provokes emotional reactions in others. What's particularly fun is when these two groups overlap.
    Some people also hold that learning requires arguing. I think they also include personal attacks to try to get to the "truth". They want to throw the person off-guard so they are more likely to make mistakes in their reasoning and so they will reveal any underlying anger. I've had a hard time understanding the constructiveness of that reasoning.

    Debate is great. Having ideas challenged is great, but the assumption that this requires saying things in a denigrating way is arbitrary. Anyone who has done teaching knows that ideas can be easily challenged without denigrating or humiliating speech to get the idea across. There is something different going on rather than just the exchange of ideas. There is something strongly social and emotional going on when personal attacks enter the language.

    Personal denigrating language can serve a few purposes. It can make someone "win" an argument because the other person gives up on communicating with them. It can also be a form of passive-aggression if they are actually angry at someone irl, so they come online to rake someone else over the coals to regain a sense of personal power. It can look direct online, but actually be a way of working out a completely different issue.

    I choose environments where I am exposed to constructive criticism and having my ideas challenged. If this occurs in "idea space" then it is most direct and efficient. There is no humiliation language used because it takes up unnecessary space and causes social or emotional distractions. It is irrelevant. I'm not comfortable in social space and so am quick to pick up on when that is the focus of the communication and I withdraw. I'm not interested in comparing relative social skills for dominance. Perhaps I could win if it was especially important, but I don't care about that skill, find it distracting and irrelevant, and so it's underdeveloped. It requires a willingness to make another person feel off-balance through brutal insults that will push buttons of any insecurity they may feel. It requires the ability to take language and twist it around to make whatever was stated seem as ridiculous, erroneous, and idiotic as possible. This is done even if it completely changes the meaning of the post. To debate in this way is reduced completely to a play of language. There is not a motivation to understand what is said, or even to discover truth. The motivation is to win a social altercation through manipulation of emotions and text.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't really mind conflict
    How strong is your Kung Fu?


  10. #40
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Wow, all these posts are so much more interesting than my OP

    I admit that I am a bit more intellectually lazy than I used to be. I used to love a good debate and didn't particularly mind (at first) if it degenerated into an argument, although ultimately those arguments would probably end in tears, for me anyway (not for the other person if they were NT, which they usually were.) Now I hate arguments, and I know debating can be necessary, but I am a bit wary about it.

    As others have mentioned, I would really differentiate between debating and arguing. I think a debate becomes an argument when it involves personal attacks and mudslinging, and also when the same ground gets covered over and over again with mounting hostility and the parties involved can't at least just agree to disagree.

    I just think there are always, or almost always, more constructive ways of having an intellectual conversation (or whatever) without hostility and provocation being involved. Maybe one reason I get involved in forums such as these but still remain fairly detached is that I am very sensitive to conflict and can feel very hurt and unsettled even by an unkind comment directed my way online. I'm not actually that crazy about observing arguments either. It just seems to reflect some of the lower human instincts. People snapping and snarling at each other to release tension or to show who's the alpha or whatever.

    I guess most people on this forum are ok...I've just really wondered about some scenarios that I've observed.
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