User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 167

  1. #61
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,133

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I have no such examples.
    That is why I laughed: Your initial post was quite pointless.

  2. #62
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    That is why I laughed: Your initial post was quite pointless.
    As far as I can tell, your only contributions here have been negative; you love to tell people why their castles are built on air. You seem quite smart, which makes you moderately interesting... I've been trying to determine if there's anything in the least positive about you.

    I don't expect you to perform on demand; that's demeaning. I would, however, be interested to know if there's anything in particular you believe in, or stand for, or value, other than a sort of sharply perverse contrarianism.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Adasta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    394

    Default

    This "Real Men" debate reminds me of the dichotomies involved in a real relationship. For example, a woman might really fancy a guy because he's an athlete with a great body; however, things turn pear-shaped when they start to go out, since said bloke has to go to the gym 5 days a week and train at the weekends, thereby "neglecting" his girlfriend.

    Isn't the notion of the "Real Man" the same as the one of the "Real Woman" propounded by so many magazines?
    That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
    Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
    Of any world where promises were kept,
    Or one could weep because another wept.

  4. #64
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Adasta View Post
    This "Real Men" debate reminds me of the dichotomies involved in a real relationship. For example, a woman might really fancy a guy because he's an athlete with a great body; however, things turn pear-shaped when they start to go out, since said bloke has to go to the gym 5 days a week and train at the weekends, thereby "neglecting" his girlfriend.

    Isn't the notion of the "Real Man" the same as the one of the "Real Woman" propounded by so many magazines?
    I prefer the notion of the "fully actualized person"... someone who knows what they value and why, and lives accordingly. The fully actualized person generally has energy and ethics and is a worthwhile person to be around. Note that this interpretation is gender-neutral.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,133

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    As far as I can tell, your only contributions here have been negative; you love to tell people why their castles are built on air.
    Not all my contributions have been negative. I concede, however, that they may come in superior numbers. Some that I intend to be positive might also be viewed as negative. My aim is not humiliation, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I've been trying to determine if there's anything in the least positive about you.
    Very little. I should be be sentenced to the stake.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I don't expect you to perform on demand; that's demeaning. I would, however, be interested to know if there's anything in particular you believe in, or stand for, or value, other than a sort of sharply perverse contrarianism.
    The believe-in issue derives from my little banter with the alpha male, does it not? I did not answer his question because I simply do not have a belief similar the christian one. And I do not believe, stand for or value contrarianism for its on sake.

    I value good music, films, books, conversations and interesting people.

  6. #66
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The believe-in issue derives from my little banter with the alpha male, does it not? I did not answer his question because I simply do not have a belief similar the christian one.
    That I already knew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I value good music, films, books, conversations and interesting people.
    Understood. Thanks.

  7. #67
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,938

    Default

    I haven't read through this thread properly, and I am not sure how to link to another thread.

    However, you may find it interesting to refer to my "Men should be striding heroically forth" thread which appeared in the Relationships forum a few months ago and which produced a storm of controversy.
    Female
    INFJ
    Enneagram 6w5 sp/sx


    I DOORSLAMMING

  8. #68
    He who laughs
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    1,327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, you're going to have to paint with a more careful brush. Feminism has gone through various revamps since the shrill extreme version of the 70's that you seem to be mainly referring to, and I'd even call those remnants of early feminism to be dinosaurs in some way. It's not how the average woman seems to incorporate feminist ideals in 2nd or 3rd wave (or whatever) -- she's not rebelling against being a mother or wife, for example, if she values those things, but she IS redefining them in more egalitarian fashion.

    However, I'm still willing to cut even the first wave feminists some slack, considering the sort of cultural mentality they were up against. I mean, let us please be realistic: When you're fighting your way through some of the worst social jungle out there and have no real voice in the culture except for the narrow one set aside for you by the men, only the scrappiest, nastiest, fiercest, most relentless women had a chance to make any sort of headway. It was a war, and they were the guerilla warriors of their time. If they hadn't existed, it's plausible the more moderate feminists would have never had an opportunity to be; unfortunately, the battle moved into those more nuanced and holistic realms and the shockline troops lost their purpose, so now they just seem to be holdovers. It's almost like the Japanese troops that continued to fight WWII on irrelevant and isolated tropical islands for decades after the war had actually ended, because they didn't realize everyone else had moved on.
    As I said, the deepest respect for women fighting their cause. And as I poorly tried to imply the rethoric was needed for the time, but is it needed now? No.

    I can only refer to the debates we have here in denmark, where gender equality now, seems to be all about how few female executives, there are in danish companies. And that some political parties, are ready to put in quotas on how many female board members and executives, a company need to have. And if the companies dont comply, they are ready to dissolve that company. That is so degrading of women if you ask me. That you need a quota, because women are special. Its not what I see women in their 20s generally want, its some women in their 30s and 40s, that are still stuck on some idea, that companies run by men, will only hire men for top level jobs. Ask the women in their 20s, if they want affirmative action towards job oppurtunities. They'll say no. They want the job because they earned it, not because of some affirmative action. Plus the women in their 20s are higher educated, than their male counterparts. So its going to happen automatically.

    Im going to quote a blog entry I liked. Its a danish liberal woman's thoughts on some poll about preferences of age and gender of managers. Its translated with google translate with some tweaks. Click here for the translated page

    What if men ARE better?

    The manager must be male and over 45 years. It is the conclusion of Danish Chamber of Commerce investigation of whether we prefer a man or woman as boss. An immediate rather absurd question, perhaps also reflected in the fact that 32% answered "do not" - I wonder if they just prefer a competent manager m/f? There may indeed be some sense in that. But that almost a third answered "do not" appear to have given rise to reflection at the Danish Chamber of Commerce. Organisation Head of HR and management finds instead that we are very stereotyped in our image of a boss, and that quota systems dont have much effect if it is really a man, we naturally prefer. Possibly, but we sure are also very stereotypical in the way we do research and subsequently interpret the results.

    According to the study by Danish Chamber of Commerce, we prefer:

    Women under 30 years: 1%
    Male under 30 years: 1%
    Female 30-45 years: 10%
    Male 30-45 years: 18%
    Women over 45 years: 13%
    Male above 45 years: 26%
    Do not know: 32%

    With the proviso that 32% did not know how to reply, it is interesting that so many seem to prefer a male boss. Why? Is it our performances that just are gender-medieval, or is it also about real experiences, that we have had better experiences with a male boss? If the latter is true, there is food for thought in the piece. Danish Chamber of Commerce must therefore next time remember the additional question: Do you speak from your own experience? Yes / no. If yes, I look forward to see the old brigade of feminists interpret the results.

    For it may well be a yes. It is a widespread notion in feminist red-room, that women are discriminated against by evil men and that men get their top positions because of club memberships. Not because of ability. See eg. how gender researcher Karen Sjørup from Roskilde University Centre explains wage differentials in the private sector with the fact that men are better at getting the unique and very well-paid jobs:

    - The men are better at having the right networks, sit in the right VL-groups (groups in Danish Management Society) and knowing the right people, who can give them high salaries. Women are more often alone with their career, she says.

    Of course, it's the whiskey tasting at the golf club, that makes you a good, well paid manager and one day a CEO. Ofcourse the world is that simple.

    Or maybe it means something else. That companies thrive on generating profits, and that they recruit and develop those who are best at it. Men and women. The economic incentives reward therefore a non-sexist hiring policy, and could it be businesses think more about money than to maintain a closed man's only club? That I think.

    It may be heretic to link good management with performance pay and a particular sex, uuuh, but if the connection is correct, then many prefer a male boss, because they generally ARE better than women.

    More willing to de-emphasize the family and give it extra gas at work, more willing to put career goal over the objective of getting off early to bake as many muffins to the kids. Could it be that simple?

    It may be possibility to explore next time. Until then, it is a shame ridden, social constructivist dogma that the sexes are equal in the workplace, regardless of effort, and that women should be positive affirminated through quotas to expand their incredibly amazing potential, pinned down as they are by gender stereotypes and men only clubs. If you want to do women a service, then it is dropping all the ridiculous quota talk and look at reality instead of on all the notions of it. Simultaneously, many men probably appreciate being spared more bullshit that they have networked, golfed and lazed to the top. Many are today in high positions because they are better than us and has sacrificed a lot, but funny enough its just as difficult to recognize as it is to understand that women are lower in the wage statistics, because they want more freedom and time to the family.
    EDIT: Just because, Im going to give you another blog entry of her's aswell. Click here for blog entry in english

    Danish women resemble men in red shoes

    Information (a danish newspaper) has talked to two Palestinian sisters, Faten Taha and Sahar Taha, and asked them to describe the typical Danish woman. And here she is: "She has a flat, red shoes and jeans. Then she obviously wear a jacket and short hair. And yes, absolutely no makeup. "Bon Appetit, the Danish woman can apparently only be distinguished from the Danish man on shoe color (and vice versa). Although the sisters are brought up with that beauty is no shame to strive for and that it must be nurtured, maintained, preserved and be put under attention throughout life. They are therefore in high heels, whether it rains or snows, for beauty is important, unlike here in Denmark, where there has gone bicycle-helmet in the aesthetics and the practical set over beauty.

    Are the two sisters right? (Read more here: http://www.information.dk/249920).

    Yes, says author Suzanne Brøgger, Queen of turbans and heavy eye makeup. She believes that in Denmark there is a fundamental conflict between beauty and female emancipation.

    "It is an underlying idea which has always been there, resulting in part from the Protestant spirit in which it is not the outer, you have to grow, but its internally. There, one can say, that the feminist rebellion did well in keeping with that tradition. Here one would not as a woman in any case be seen as an evil picture of the woman. Nobody wants to look like the negative image of the woman. Nobody wants to look like the whore or witch. "

    Brøgger also believe to know that "when young women begin to make-up and take eye makeup on, they immediately noticed the little shame. Their mother, grandmother or aunt's disapproving gaze. "

    She's backed up by writer Pia Fris Laneth and gender researcher Anita Frank Goth, who says there are more and more rules and expectations for women over the years and that it is also the hallmark of the liberated woman that she must constantly be prepared for new activities - you have to cope with rainpuddles and mud if the weather gets bad. Puk Revisited (danish girls book from 70's I think). Pia Fris Laneth also states that "it remains undeniably a very great relief to be free from worrying about the appearance. One can instead be confirmed as a thinking being. "

    If there here seem to be reproduced many aged feminist ideas about women, then check out the article's commentary track. Here it is also full throttle with high heels ill-effects on posture, that makeup is harmful, just natural beauty is real and that life is too short for women who spend more time on their appearance than to read newspapers. Boring.

    But Suzanne Brøgger is quite right that women's liberation has inherited a good portion of Protestant puritanism, on the other hand, it is more doubtful if the generations that come after her, experience the shame she's talking about. Personally I do not. But it's always fun to see kæphest (= hobby-horse, hyperbole for one's favorite topic) come on seasonally indeterminate grass, Gee, Gee, and you may wonder why the journalist did not get a comment from women born on the other side of 1965. Or from a man.

    For interestingly enough, no one points out that women are doing something out of themselves for their own sake - as well. The underlying premise is that we only do it for the man and doing something for men is prohibited and wrong and a clear sign that one is not free. Remember, the liberated woman is characterized by its knickers and readiness to sprint in the rain / walking in the mud and jump over puddles. Remember also that by not thinking about how you look, one can be recognized as a thinking being. Otherwise, no? Ask Pia Fris Laneth.

    Viewed from the two Palestinian women's perspective, Danish women suffers under the anachronism that equality is about being the same, and they wonder fully justified over the fact that feminism has tried to throw beauty out with the bathwater.

    Many others probably wonder that we can write 2010, now 2011, and still debate whether it is a real schism for women to be attractive to men, while being able to go their own ways. Brøgger call it one of the big difficulties, the Nordic emancipated woman is standing with.

    It really is not. Most young women are Far Beyond that point. But the last to find out, appears to be ancient ladle children from feminism who still insist that women must play down or even out their gender to be taken seriously as a sex.

  9. #69
    violaine
    Guest

    Default

    Dear God, how I hate this song down to my bones. Seems appropriate though.
    [YOUTUBE="JPR108kwNo4"]Cowboys![/YOUTUBE]

  10. #70
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,545

    Default

    Too bad they don't allow five letters for the MBTI slot...you could use an "H" in there and perhaps a piece of cheese. huurrr, hurrrr.....If you want a manly man, go to Idaho in winter, look for a wooden shack on a mountain with smoke pouring out of a makeshift chimney, knock on door, mate, repeat.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


Similar Threads

  1. [NT] Where are all the NTJ's at?
    By Evastover in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-28-2015, 02:59 AM
  2. Where are all the INFJs at? Lol
    By SilverMoon in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-02-2011, 07:26 PM
  3. INTJ female (sigh, where are all the others?)
    By creativeRhino in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 06-26-2008, 11:44 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO