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  1. #11
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    1. "Hello!" running back towards you in happy go lucky fashion! :)
    2. Choice of the perceiver. Eye of the beholder. X of the Y.
    Not really.

  2. #12

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    I don't know exactly what I would consider genuine. I have three competing beliefs trying to see which can win.

    1) Everyone is genuine because what they do is who they are authenticity/falseness is a meaningless label for a meaningless concept. But like selfishness and other such terms, I think removing all meaning from such words is an adolescent-style cop-out. There is something people are alluding to when they use the word genuine. Perhaps it is subjective, perhaps it is ill-defined. Maybe the pest we can do for a universal meaning of it is some average of these things. But at this point can we fault someone for not wanting to be genuine?

    2) Genuine=raw. Every thought or emotion comes through and is unguarded. What you see is what is happening between their heads and in their hearts as well. But again, can you fault people for not wanting to be genuine?

    3) Consistency in words and action. I suppose that has been mentioned. However, this may be what people mean by integrity--a word with positive normative connotations, but not the same as "genuine," I believe. It can seem down right false sometimes. People have fickle emotions and fickle impulses and drives. When someone vainly tries to be consistent, it can seem false.

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  3. #13
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post

    Empathy.
    That's interesting because I would say sympathy (which I acknowledge is different from empathy) is what would make me feel somebody is being ingenuine.

    Maybe it's because I have immature Fe, but I tend to distrust it. On initially meeting somebody, too much Fe pricks my radar as to an alterior motive. Of course I'm probably wrong in most cases, but I'm very cynical of nice for the sake of nice.
    Why do we always come here?

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  4. #14
    No me digas, che! Recoleta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post

    Question:
    *What makes people be perceived as genuine? Is it their command of Fe? Or, opposingly, their complete lack of social skills so that you know they are "being real" (because they are inept at anything else)?
    Hi Usehername...I'm glad to see you back!

    Well, from what I have learned in the wonderful world of restaurant serving:

    1) To immediately give off a genuine persona you have to smile and have some eye contact. If you can seem comfortable and confident in your own skin it goes a long way...it's even a little bit better when you're a bit clumsy because you can jokingly make fun of yourself without beating yourself up for your short comings.
    2) Listen to the way people talk...accents tell a lot about a person. If you can mimic how they sound you sort of unconsciencely build trust with them. You're telling them, "Hey, I'm just like you."
    3) Like Alean said, empathy works. Find some sort of commonality and take it from there...that's probably the easiest way to come off as genuine...because if you actually do have something in common, then it is...well...genuine!
    4) Body language counts a lot. If you really want to seem sincere, it is as simple as touching your chest bone. (No, don't get dirty thoughts). Sincere people bring their hands close to their chest and body and move them outward and inward as they talk with expression making them appear that they are passionate about what they are talking about.
    5) Finally, it is easy to seem sincere if you are a good listener.

  5. #15
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Welcome back!

    I think people are perceived as genuine when their words match their nonverbal communication. It's an intuition.

    This also implies that people who talk less or about impersonal subjects may either be perceived as not genuine, or as difficult to get to know and trust.

  6. #16
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post

    Question:
    *What makes people be perceived as genuine? Is it their command of Fe? Or, opposingly, their complete lack of social skills so that you know they are "being real" (because they are inept at anything else)?

    *Why do we believe some people but not others?

    edit: and YAY for heart being able to come back!
    Welcome back!

    The only people who I personally consider not genuine are those who are trying to sell me something or try to influence me in some way for their personal gain. As a rule I tend to avoid such people (and they tend to avoid me), so I don't encounter people who I consider not genuine very often.

    On the other hand I observe a lot of accusations from other people about "so and so being fake" or something similar. I don't believe these accusations to be true. Instead I believe they result from misunderstandings and miscommunication. When a person encounters someone who is significantly different from them they can consider the person to be disingenuous to some degree. In particular when two people with very different outlooks encounter one another, both can consider the other one to be fake.

    For example if a pessimist encounters an optimist, then the pessimist can interpret the optimist as having a "false cheery facade" while the optimist might see the pessimist as trying to appear "deeper than they really are". In reality both are genuine but perceive the other as fake, because they cannot comprehend the other outlook.

    In general if you want to be seen as genuine by another person then you should do what Recoletta suggests in her post, that is, show interest and mirror their personality. In general you will be seen as genuine if you reinforce what a person believes about themself and what they believe about the world around them. Being perceived as genuine has less to do with being true to yourself and more to do with being true to what the other person thinks you should be.
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  7. #17
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername;124612Question:
    *What makes people be perceived as genuine? Is it their command of Fe? Or, opposingly, their complete lack of social skills so that you know they are "being real" (because they are inept at anything else)?

    *Why do we believe some people but not others?

    edit: and YAY for [B
    heart [/B]being able to come back!
    Welcome back!

    But concerning the question...I would have to say body language and speaking patterns. In the end, this is how emotion/everything is conveyed. I'm answering specifically based on the fact that you said, "perceived" as genuine. After all, a sociopath may not be genuine, but they sure as hell seem like it. Also, we will tend to believe those who speak with confidence and authority over those who waver...but that goes back to my original answer.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  8. #18
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    1. "Hello!" running back towards you in happy go lucky fashion!
    2. Choice of the perceiver. Eye of the beholder. X of the Y.
    1. Hello yall
    2. agreed

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Welcome back!

    But concerning the question...I would have to say body language and speaking patterns. In the end, this is how emotion/everything is conveyed. I'm answering specifically based on the fact that you said, "perceived" as genuine. After all, a sociopath may not be genuine, but they sure as hell seem like it. Also, we will tend to believe those who speak with confidence and authority over those who waver...but that goes back to my original answer.
    That's how the person, genuine or not, conveys themself in order to appear genuine but it doesn't explain why they might "be perceived" genuine. And you pointed out 'believe' so I'd like to take that further.

    So, to continue Metamorphosis's thought, pardon me for it, it's the recipient's receptivity in perceiving that's to blame! You could have tons of people believe Metamorphosis is genuine because he's a person who comes across as gregarious or 'sincere' and everybody loves him to pieces whereas there's one person lurking in The Graveyard who percieves him as scum~ Maybe there's a newbie debating the awesome and apparently 'honest' Metamorphosis and decides to observe him for more info before becoming receptive to it.

    And when Metamorphosis turns out to be a sociopath who's duped everyone by sending out his version of 'genuine waves', that new person less likely to trust Morphy's motives at first glance might've suspected it whereas the rest of us poor shumcks did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Why do we believe some people but not others?
    Experience. We liken people to what we know. Stereotypes are perpetuated. Lack of empathy/sympathy, maybe.

    A child first believes their parent is genuine (honest, sincere, helpful) and trusts them implicitly until repeatedly harmed, becoming less likely to find people genuine in the future. Trust needs to be earned over time. You have to trust/believe that someone is genuine before you are receptive towards them, right? (right? )

    So, um, in short, I think it's largely subjective to the individual's perception/discernment of being receptive to a person and the conveyance of sincerity from the other person (truly genuine or not).

    Note: Don't hose me down in fire, Metamorphosis, I just wanted to play while I was half-asleep.

  10. #20
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Being ingenuous involves molding oneself into the person one thinks will gain one approval, affection, support, security, whatever. It is essentially presenting people with an image of yourself that will win you what you desire. We all probably do it in small doses; some of us probably do it in large doses.

    The most ingenuous and diabolically manipulative people are the ones who don't realize they're being manipulative and don't realize they're deceiving themselves. Being ingenuous is pretending to be something you are not because you don't feel that you can get what you want from someone by being yourself alone.

    That someone is not genuine - that someone is deeply deceptive - is not something I'm afraid of falling prey to, though I certainly think we're all deceptive on some level. Well, I would say I'm a little afraid of it. The people I'm most afraid of encountering, and the ones I think are the most deceptive, are the ones who don't even realize they're being deceptive; they can live a lie, with no shame really. I'd say the ones who realize they're deceiving others are farther along the path to growth than those who don't.

    We don't even have names for all the manipulative behaviors we can perform, because so many of them are unconscious behaviors. Sometimes, we're not even aware of the extent to which we're conditioning people to respond to us in the way we want. You could argue that good debators are simply good manipulators, but you couldn't argue that they were being ingenuous unless they were being insincere. Knowing that clear definitions, a strong voice, and an upright posture would convince people more than the opposite, is good rhetorical analysis at work. It's manipulative, but for a better purpose than simply needing affection or needing attention. But the line becomes blurry, because you are being someone you normally aren't - or can it be argued that you are exercising a part of yourself that is inherent to you, but that you do not normally need? As I said, it becomes blurry.

    Manipulation becomes dangerous when you become fixated on getting what you want from others, but feel you cannot do it by being yourself; if you feel your life depends on someone else's approval of you, you'll do anything to get it.

    It will probably be fairly obvious that someone isn't genuine, over time, or even right off the bat. If someone gives and gives to me in the hopes of gaining my affection, I will know it; it will be obvious. If someone tries to withhold affection from me, in the hopes that I will come begging for it like a dog, that will be fairly obvious, too. If someone is only feigning confidence, it may become clear that they are taxing themselves under the strain of the deception; they may react defensively to criticism, for example, or do something else that would suggest they do not really appreciate themselves or have faith in themselves. If nothing else, manipulative people probably can't maintain healthy relationships, because it is not themselves they are putting into the relationship, but rather a mirage they hope will turn the trick.

    I think a good remedy against people manipulating you is knowing the ways in which you manipulate others, and really looking out for your own needs. If you look out for your own needs, it will become more obvious when a person is saying one thing but doing another. You will have no reason to pull the wool over your eyes, because your happiness does not depend on being with this person or remaining friends with this person. You can be more objective and honest about their behavior, and see the warning signs and inconsistencies much sooner, perhaps soon enough to preclude even shallow relations with them.

    Again, the most destructively manipulative people probably don't even realize they're being manipulative, or they realize it but have no compassion for others' needs (in other words, they're sociopaths on some level). The more harmless but equally (if not more) pitiable ones are the ones who know they're being deceptive but aren't confident they can get what they want by being themselves alone. I really pity people like that, because I do know what it's like.

    It's hard to say what seems genuine, because everyone has their own opinion of what genuine is. I do know that if I am being objective, it will be easier to see ingenuousness, sooner.
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