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Thread: Religious Ambiguity.

  1. #11
    Senior Member Array cafe's Avatar
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    Hearing something you disagree with infringes upon your free practice of religion?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #12
    Rats off to ya! Array Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaub View Post
    Whatever. Guess this is the last thread I'll make.
    Awwwwwwwwww, baby. It's not all that bad.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  3. #13
    .~ *aĉa virino* ~. Array Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makaub View Post
    It makes me sad that my thoughts and opinions can get rejected no matter the meaning behind them simply because I do not sugar coat what I say. Shift and Caps lock do not hostility make, or....does everyone here think the only time you can emphasize or be "loud" is when you are trying to put people off?

    Why has the word "Passion" died in our vocabularies? Why do we have these filters that keep things out unless they meet our predefined class of "appropriate"?
    As far as THIS post goes, what is important to understand is that communication is a negotiation between two people. You are negotiating about both what you say and how you say it. You have particular needs you are asking others to meet. They have particular needs they are asking you to make, when they reply.

    If you want to "be yourself" and speak bluntly (and not just bluntly, but in ways that are negative beyond what you might need to in order to get your point across), then you have to be willing to accept the repercussions of that.

    Some people will not be able to enter communication with you, because their needs are different than yours and you're ignoring what they need. And taking responsibility for your approach means that you need to allow some people to reject you simply because of your style.

    No need to rage about it; it's simply a given. Some people are going to be put off. So accept it or change your approach. (Personally, I think a little bit of "non-bluntness" would help you engage the people you want to engage. When I read your post, I found the language in spots needlessly combative/aggressive.)

    But I'm willing to engage you in content. I probably agree with you in many ways and meant to respond earlier, but I just have a lot of concerns in life at the moment that are absorbing my energy.

    Even when I was an adherent of conservative Christianity, I was always offended by my brothers and sisters who insisted on smearing the motivations and values of those who believed in other religions or no religions. It just ate me away inside.

    I got so tired of hearing how stupid people who believed in evolution were, and that scientists who believed in it did so only because their eyes were darkened and their heart closed against God... because obviously if they were good people, they'd believe in a literal Genesis instead and accept the scientific facts that "proved Genesis was true." *eye roll* (It always galled me, the audacity of that -- that someone with a high school diploma and little interest in science would so easily slander the intelligence and intellectual integrity of people who had PhD's in their field. A PhD is no guarantee that someone is always right... but it takes a lot of ignorance to simply write off someone with such an extensive education.)

    So I do feel your pain there. I was very much a witness to how the motivations and integrity and altruism of atheists were disparaged and put down and dismissed. It made me so angry and contributed to my alienation from the conservative influences in the faith.

    (Of course, it doesn't help that you're generalizing about Catholics and Muslims yourself, whether in retaliation or not. But I guess a vent has to happen, just to get the anger out.)

    I don't have much desire for evangelism either. I always hated it, and I hated being forced to do it if I wanted to be a "good Christian and not ashamed of my faith." But it always rubbed me very much the wrong way to think of having the audacity to go to someone and tell them their way of thinking is wrong and that I have better news for them than what they might have already figured out for themselves.

    We need to stop telling everyone they're wrong just because they disagree with you. Until the world ends, and we all go to the GENUINE afterlife, we will never know who's right. Why can't we all just enjoy our lives and try giving strangers reasons to smile, instead of frown?
    Amen. If God exists, he honors those who love what he loves and loves other people as they love themselves. And if he doesn't, I don't want to follow him anyway. I'd rather be somewhere else.

    People are hung up on the symbols, because they want something tangible to cling to... but it is the concepts underlying the symbols that people need to somehow connect with.

    Still, looking at the rest, it's hard for me to find something to talk about. I think your response to SolitaryPenguin was a little over the top. Obviously you were pissed off because this topic has become very sensitive to you, so a lot of anger is pouring out... but you read a lot more into it than what it seemed he meant and retaliated with a pretty vicious personal attack far beyond anything he said or seemingly meant.

    (This is probably why no one else has bothered to seriously answer you -- and I'm not even sure why I am, as I'll probably just get bitten too... but hey, it's just the Internet, right?)

    I don't think the "I talk bluntly, I'm not actually angry" line cuts it. It's pretty damned obvious you are angry, and I don't excuse ripping someone a new one under the excuse of "bluntness." I actually value what you've described, am sick of the issues focused on by US Christianity, and can empathize with you... but if you expect some decent conversation, then you will have to rein in your approach and cut the vitriol. I guarantee you'll have better chance for more discussion if you do.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
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    Wow, your posts really distress me inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaub View Post
    I feel alienated because I am a religious minority that wants to help humanity, Christians feel alienated because atheists are always working to refute them, Atheists feel alienated because there are too many idiots around them trying to explain that the reason we have thumbs and the only animal that does other than us is monkeys because an invisible wish goblin made that choice 6,000 years ago. Catholics don't feel anything of alienation because their holiest person runs his own country so they're happy. Muslims are pissed because their fanatical religion taught them that anyone who mocks their Deities must die.
    *deep breath* I dislike generalisations. How do you know that all Christians feel alienated b/c atheits are working to refute them or that all atheists feel alienated b/c idiots believe in a god/s? Excuse me, all Muslisms are pissed b/c their fanatical religion taught them to kill unbelievers?

    If I were any of the above, I'd say don't speak for me. You could've said 'majority' or what is represented in the media. There are plenty from each group who either don't care what others think, are fine with it, or are 'moderates' of their group and others fall inbetween. I wonder why you didn't mention any other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism etc too. Surely, there are those who feel alienated, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaub View Post
    Did god ever say that if everyone is not converted to believe in him in one way than the entire cosmos will cease to be and no one will be admitted to heaven? Nope.
    God, or really the people who thought they were representing god/jesus and his followers, may not have written that if everyone didn't convert or believe in god that the entire cosmos would cease, oh no! But in the bible, there is one line Jesus says, I paraphrase, that when he returns to judge humanity "bring those who do not believe in me and kill them before me." I've been trying to google to find it and I dread searching through parent's bible but believe it or find it for yourself. It's also been stated by certain Christians that in the bible that when Jesus returns and salvation is upon us 10,000 (or is it 100,000?) virgin male Jews are going to be sacrificied to God. I don't know where but I've been told..

    Other than that, there are numerous heinous things against homosexuals or descendants of "Cush" (i.e. Africans and Black people) and that they were to be enslaved. Women were to be submissive etc And in the Koran, it DOES say to go out and kill dissenters. But you already knew that and I'm sure most people know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaub View Post
    I have a religious system so god damned complicated its retarded, but the basic is I call my deity Satan.
    That seems to be the problem with religions, period. It's so complicated that most people don't seriously read their religious texts anymore (if they ever did) and mainly rely on their instructors/priests/etc. Okay, I don't know if they think it's complicated, but it's generally known that people don't read their holy texts. I think there was a stastic on people who were Christians in the USA who actually ever read the bible in their life and it was little to none or maybe around 30% or so.

    I'm curious when you say Satan. Is it LaVeyan Satanism or Theistic Satanism. I vaguely remember about Theistic Satanism, but it's more about the knowledge Satan imparted to help humanity? errr I think the other is considered more hedonistic or something? Please enlighten me if you're either or there's another branch I'm unfamiliar with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaub View Post
    Tolerance is not far enough, Religious acceptance is what I am interested in, and if you can't see that, you're just an instigator looking only to cause the same problems that the people I am talking against cause, because thats the only result from saying the things they bother to say.

    I don't give a shit what you believe in, but I dare you to tell me that my choices in life are evil and that I deserve eternal damnation. See how far you make it in my list of friends.
    Let's see. Religious acceptance is what you want and if I don't or she doesn't or he doesn't or they don't see it that way we're an instigator! Hehe. And then you'd say you're not forcing your beliefs on us?

    I DON'T BELIEVE IN RELIGION. (and no, I'm not angry, but using caps occasionally is fun sometimes).

    But back to being serious. I stopped believing in religion when I was probably 8 or 9 years old, after seriously questioning everyone from family to preists about "Why can't there be female preiets?" "Why do you hate homosexuals?"

    And as I read the bible (yup, I actually read most of it, own my own, because I like to learn as much as I can about whatever I'm interested in), I found there were too many contradictions and too much of what I didn't like. It's funny how my family thought someone was influencing me or whatever, or on whatever I thought was different than theirs.

    And as I'd observed the people in church who went to my school or the parents or those who lived near me. So many of those people seemed nice inside the church but once out, they returned to be racist or sexist. Those two points really influenced me on thinking everyone who believed in a religion were hypocrits. However, in defence, I was a little kid! I soon realised that people are mostly ignorant, have been attacked before and so attack others, or are in fear of the unknown and don't want to discover the unknown because it may refute their beliefs!

    Religious tolerance most likely never existed and it most likely never will. Recall any of the FOUR the Inquisitons? They weren't preaching religious tolerance, they were enforcing and killing those who didn't agree or kept believing in their own religions/beliefs. How about any colonization in any country of the world, where religion was used to "save the people"? When the Europeans came and shattered the lives of the Natives? When they forced them to convert or die, and converted them and killed most of those people anyway?

    And too many other examples to put in. But really, how many wars were geared not only to conquer lands but to force beliefs onto others? Fast forward a thousand, five hundred, one hundred years later and here we are.

    How many of those countries and peoples who's ancestor had different beliefs stay with them? I'm pretty sure it's none. Those same people who were converted, mostly out of force, don't have a recollection of their past and thus preach whatever is taught now.

    You say you "don't give a shit what other people believe in" and I wonder if that means you won't bother to look into and just accept what someone believes as their right and that's it. If someone's religion dictated to dominate females or enslave others or to destroy dissenters, would you smile and say "that's okay, it's their right to believe it"? Or would you say, those people are wrong and if they'd just only stay where they belonged and preach their own religion and not enforce it to others...well...again, their religions say TO PREACH and TO SPREAD (MAKE THEM!). And so, they truly are doing what their religions and holy works tell them too. Or, maybe, do you think their texts are wrong now and they should stop if that's the case?

    I don't understand how any moderate religious person can say they accept homosexuality, are against racism etc or don't follow their holy texts word to kill dissenters and still believe in their deity/ies. If they read the texts fully and found that their texts explicity state that they should hate those offenders or kill those offenders or those whom are stated to be hated (oiii), then they are going against that sect of faith and rules. I'd rather they fully believed in their religion, then, because they'd be less hypocritic. (Okay, I'd rather no one believed in religion but I already say that lol)

    Thing is, even though I stopped believing in Christanity as a child, I didn't 'hate' them or others. I had this idea that came into fruition when I was probably 12 yrs old that "I believe that all religions are different interpretations of the same thing, and that whatever anyone believes in is okay so long as they don't hurt anyone" (I actually said that almost word for word whenever questioned about my beliefs). At 21 yrs now, I rescind that and think that we'd be better off without religion. I've always been a spiritual person and what I 'believe' in borders on New Agism (which isn't new, anyway). I experienced first hand what those were before I even knew the name for it but I digress again ><

    If you've studied religions at all, you'll note that there are vast similarities and most terms/ideas were merely taken from others! Stories like the Noah's Arc and the Flood were WELL WRITTEN by the Sumerians (modern day Iraq) about 2600 years "Before Christ". The Sumerians were the earliest civilisation on EARTH (not the first peoples, but the first to be seen as a civilsation) So many other religions also adopted the Flood story. Every type from Hebrew to Hindu to etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Makaub View Post
    This is the most backwards and idiotic response to this problem possible. "Lol don't force my beliefs on you? but....your saying that is forcing beliefs on me" Bullshit
    Actually, SolitaryPenguin was asking a question, not forcing a belief.

    And, you're right, shifts and caps does not hostility make (maybe irritation if it's ALL in caps lol) but telling people to fuck off or fuck you does.

    I don't know if I seem passionate or not because I speak politely (or hope I do), but I am verrrrrrrrrrry passionate about what I believe and what you believe and what the hobo on the corner believes. Do I try to force, nope. Take it or leave it, but give me the opportunity to speak my mind and I will.

    It also seems that those people who preach their faith, or forced their faith, or adamantly were/are against faith, are pretty passionate about their beliefs too. And damn, I hope I wasn't writing this for nothing and you do read this post and haven't already whisked yourself away from this forum.

    Jennifer's right about no one going to take you seriously.. She wondered why she did, I know I did because I'm a fool at heart >< and wanted to spread my love to you (eh so corny ~~~~).

    Dammit, before I realised it this became reeeeeally long and most likely no one will read it~~ Oh wells, it's good to rev up the mind. I thank you for this discussion. It may distress me sometimes, on how somethings worded, but it's good to re-enforce one's ideas/beliefs or to help them re-evaluate or to open them up to something new. I hope you or anyone else who actually read this or any else's posts took something from it, whether positive or negative.

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