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  1. #41
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    document i watched some time ago said differently than you, and there was some native american priests speaking in it.
    So, we have a choice if we're going by your logic.

    1. Allow everyone to have peyote

    2. Allow nobody to have peyote

    Peyote is legal for religious purposes just as wine was for Catholics during prohibition. There may be some scrutiny, seeing as it's an illegal substance for the entire rest of the country, but it's still allowed.

    I'm guessing by this logic, the Palestinians should leave, right? Oh, I can't wait to get my checks from Russia!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    totally different thing. but yes, humans own their own dept, government should own their own dept too. government is still alive today, but your grandfather isnt.
    No one in the past government is alive either. Nor are any of the victims.
    I don't see any difference at all.. except scale.

  3. #43
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    You know, if this is a "white man" problem, then white Europeans have a part of this too. Pay up, man!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #44
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    So, we have a choice if we're going by your logic.

    1. Allow everyone to have peyote

    2. Allow nobody to have peyote

    Peyote is legal for religious purposes just as wine was for Catholics during prohibition. There may be some scrutiny, seeing as it's an illegal substance for the entire rest of the country, but it's still allowed.

    I'm guessing by this logic, the Palestinians should leave, right? Oh, I can't wait to get my checks from Russia!
    native americans should have their own state(or country inside usa) where federal(or usa) laws wouldnt apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    No one in the past government is alive either. Nor are any of the victims.
    I don't see any difference at all.. except scale.
    its still the same government, even tho people running it has changed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    You know, if this is a "white man" problem, then white Europeans have a part of this too. Pay up, man!
    people who came to america might have been from europe, but they formed their own country that did these agreements(that they broke) with the indians.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  5. #45
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    It's still the same government, even tho people running it has changed.
    If that were true, then why have there been amendments to the American Constitution?
    This fact alone demonstrates an evolution (in some cases a regression ) of the government.

  6. #46
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    The Federal Republic of Germany is not the same as the German Reich of the Nazi years and yet the government of the todays Germany is the legal heir of the government of the Reich with all the rights and obligations that go with it. It´s a legal question. Now, in the US there was no abrupt change as there was in Germany but an evolution, as you just said. Legally the government of Obama is the heir of the government of Buchanan or Lincoln.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #47
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Palestinians should be exiled for being on ancestral Jewish lands! I want my checks from the Russian government for terrorizing my ancestors! I demand justice!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    The Federal Republic of Germany is not the same as the German Reich of the Nazi years and yet the government of the todays Germany is the legal heir of the government of the Reich with all the rights and obligations that go with it. It´s a legal question. Now, in the US there was no abrupt change as there was in Germany but an evolution, as you just said. Legally the government of Obama is the heir of the government of Buchanan or Lincoln.
    Well legally yes.. just like a government inherits the financial debts of a previous government.

    I am coming from a much more ethical place.
    If I detach from my ethical values I am left with a big "tough titty" for the past.
    Nature says survival of the fittest.. Animals do not pay restitution.
    Species and pedigrees become extinct.
    Life moves on.
    In light of that.. legality is just an attempt to control nature. It's a losing battle that has only one point of leverage.
    Punishment. So something like this seeks to punish the innocent by repaying those who have not been victimized.

    I'll say it again.. we repay the past by learning from it. The only way to really be sorry is to stop what is causing the offense. (that's my ethics speaking again)

  9. #49
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    This goes beyond legal issues, I merely objected to to your statement that there was an evolution of the government, since you seemed to imply that with that the responsability was gone. From an ethical perspective, I would say that you are partially responsible for the actions of others when you profit from them. Naturally entrepreneurship etc play an important role, but it would be naive to assume that the wealth of Europe and North America isn´t build on the blood, sweat and tears and poverty of others. We can afford to own a hundered pairs of sneakers because they are made in a part of the world where the girl who makes them is happy to get a bowl of rice for her days work. Etc.

    So if you belong to a part of a society that has it easier than another group, that doesn´t make you guilty in the sense that you made an active choice. But what chancelor Kohl once called "the blessing of late birth" doesn´t free you from inherited responsibility (not the same as guild by association). I was born in 1980, but my tax money pays restitution to former slave workers and suvivors of the shoa. And nobody in my generation (children of people born after the war!) would ever doubt that our, ahem, special history comes with the bruden of a special responsibility. That was 65 years ago. Haphazard mockingly tmentioned the Russian pogroms and the great diaspora. But not only is that idea at least part of the foundation of the state of Israel (I said part, and I don´t want to derail this thread into a discussion about Palestine!!!) but this leads to the question of when a people´s claims agains a state prescribe. 50 years? 65? 100? 150? That is no rhetorical question, I really am wondering. What about the people of Tibet? Should they just shut up and integrate into Chinese society? Yes, this sounds like comparing apples and pears, but I really am interested in the concept of perscription in this context.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    native americans should have their own state(or country inside usa) where federal(or usa) laws wouldnt apply.
    I have a better idea, I say let's give them Finland.

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