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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    Not sure if you're being facetious or not...

    I like to work under the assumption that Europeans think all Americans are uneducated imbeciles, until proven otherwise.

    I then entertain myself proving otherwise, whilst making European men prove me to that they're not just a bunch of capri-wearing pillow-biters.
    No I wasn't, all of my American friends love history. :/
    and I'm no European. Canadian, so I don't have the same stereotypes as Europeans

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It would be an interesting cultural study to see what type would stay on an Indian reservation. Would ExTPs leave, for example? Would STJs stay? it's just a theory but I wonder if certain types would stay and others would go and what the patterns on such things would be.
    I have no idea, my great-grandmother was full blood and my grandfather looked pure Native American - dark skin, black hair, high cheekbones...I kind of look like him, but my hair is a bit lighter and my skin is whiter.

    I don't know what sort of person would stay on a Res. I've had friends (back in the South) whose parents lived on a Res at one point, or who lived on a Res themselves, and left. I had one particular friend in high school who still practiced Lakota Sioux rituals and introduced them to his friends.

    My exes grandfather was also Mexican/Native, and very much carried the style of braids, cowboy hat, boots, etc. and the little Western ties. I've been around a lot of people with Native blood but I can't say I've ever met anyone who has ever stayed on a Reservation for life, but it's kind of disconcerting when I see my facial features or body type in more 100% Native Americans.

  3. #23
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    @Southern Kross: It's a bit like beating someone to the pulpy point where you're sure if you try to help them they're going to try to claw your eyes out with the last of their strength.
    Sorry I don't follow

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This sounds like "guilt by association", as if being white in itself makes a person to blame, regardless of their actual connection to a crime. There are plenty of non-whites who have since immigrated who "benefit" from these wrongs also; what is the difference between a German & a Chinese person who immigrated later on? I don't see how having a certain skin color automatically makes someone guilty of a past atrocity unrelated to their own history. I draw the line there. The government may issue some apology, but no, I do not owe one, nor do I need "forgiveness". Finding a solution is another story; that's just basic humaneness. I agree if the government is going to formally apologize, then they need some action to back those words up; possibly why it has not been issued....
    Oh no, I didn't mean that white people should feel guilty or be blamed as a race for what was done (I would likely be in the same boat over this myself). Only that they should be mindful that they are part of the dominant culture that owes its wealth and prosperity to systematic abuses of rights of certain cultures; others have suffered (and continue to as a result of the repeated cycle of poverty) in order that Whites, generally speaking, could succeed. And that simply forgetting this fact and saying everyone should get over it is easy for people that aren't trapped in that terrible cycle; these people are still dramatically impacted today by what happened even though it was over 150 years ago. I feel the same way about the developing world. Some people believe that the problems in the 3rd world have nothing to do with them and strongly oppose assistance to them. But in truth the developed world owes its wealth and hegemony by historically exploiting the developing world. I don't expect anyone to feel quilty about what others have done or for their relative wealth and comfortable lifestyle, but to feel some sense of obligation to do something or to encourage their government to do something about it. And the fact that there were very clear treaties and laws (which are likely to be still legally binding today) that were violated repeatedly and shamelessly in times of stable governance... there really isn't an excuse for such inaction by the US government.

    And while I agree simply guestures are not enough, apologies do mean something. You should have seen how the Aboriginies reacted when they received a formal and unequivocal apology from the Australian Government (even though the abuses and time period were quite different). It was very moving.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Gee, thanks for the help with the definition of a...what did you call it? Oh yes..."country". My inadequate American education system only has time to teach me about creationism, celebrity couples, and the evils of Islam.

    Honestly, your body of work on this forum indicates that you'd put the dumbest, fattest, most willfully ignorant American to shame with your self-satisfied arrogance.
    this type of assumptions and failure in logic is the reason why jung calls intj an irrational type. or maybe it has something to do with the fact that you are american

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    My opinion - at the risk of being harsh - is that there is no point in getting stuck in the past. Old history is old history.
    those people are still living in horrible conditions, because they once lost everything. the point in this giving back is that the people who even today suffer from how they have been wronged in the past could live a better life, not to mention the future generations.
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  5. #25
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    after watching this

    http://www.ted.com/talks/aaron_huey.html

    also, do you think that native americans should get land and restitution for what white people who moved to their land have done to them?
    History is always a mixed bag. Most countries have parts of their history that they should be proud of and other parts to be ashamed of.

    I also don't think it's a realistic solution to give all the land back. Any actions the government takes toward Native Americans should be based on future solutions instead of past transgressions.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    History is always a mixed bag. Most countries have parts of their history that they should be proud of and other parts to be ashamed of.

    I also don't think it's a realistic solution to give all the land back. Any actions the government takes toward Native Americans should be based on future solutions instead of past transgressions.
    it seems like you didnt watch the video.
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  7. #27
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    History is always a mixed bag. Most countries have parts of their history that they should be proud of and other parts to be ashamed of.

    I also don't think it's a realistic solution to give all the land back. Any actions the government takes toward Native Americans should be based on future solutions instead of past transgressions.
    Nope, the US has no parts of history to be proud of at all. This is fact.

    However, I think he did watch the video.

    Hmm, I find it strange that the blame is always on the "whites." I know a few Bosnian refugees in my old hometown. They only immigrated here about ten years ago, but they're white as white can be. Are they responsible for this?

    What about people descended from the Chinese who built the railroads across the Native's land? They're given a free pass. After all, they're not "white," they're "yellow," and that's totally different, so they're innocent.

    This is not a "white" and "red" problem. This is a problem with the government's legacy. White individuals cannot, and should not, be held responsible for this. Though, yes, humanitarian aid of some kind needs to happen. These abysmal conditions should not be happening in the richest country on earth. However, Mr. On The Video has a point. Wasichu aren't trusted, so they're not sure what to do.
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  8. #28
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post

    However it must be acknowledge that all White Americans continue to benefit from the wrongs that were commited;
    How about all Americans. You think that it is just white ones that have benefited?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    those people are still living in horrible conditions, because they once lost everything. the point in this giving back is that the people who even today suffer from how they have been wronged in the past could live a better life, not to mention the future generations.
    You are saying they are still suffering because of what happened 100 - 150 years ago. There is a side of me that agrees with you but I am not sure that I'm persuaded these people do not have personal responsibility for their own lives. The people who were wronged are dead. The people born over the last 100 years have had the freedom to do whatever they've wanted to.

    Edit: It's also worth considering this is a global economy. Americans and others throughout the developed world benefit from the cheap labor in all different areas of the world. You could also say they are being taken advantage of. I heard a statistic once that 90% (or something like that) of the goods in WalMart were manufactured in China. Do we owe something to them as well?

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  9. #29
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    The same way I feel about everything I had no hand in and wasn't there to witness. I understand learning from past mistakes, but feeling guilt from something you had no part of even if you are still benefiting from it seems somewhat like a manipulative ploy from some other party that wants something. It reminds me of when people would ask who put Jesus on the cross in school. The answer was always you. You should feel bad for existing and you will be continually punished for your existence till you apologize and if you don't, into the abyss!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Sorry I don't follow


    Oh no, I didn't mean that white people should feel guilty or be blamed as a race for what was done (I would likely be in the same boat over this myself). Only that they should be mindful that they are part of the dominant culture that owes its wealth and prosperity to systematic abuses of rights of certain cultures; others have suffered (and continue to as a result of the repeated cycle of poverty) in order that Whites, generally speaking, could succeed. And that simply forgetting this fact and saying everyone should get over it is easy for people that aren't trapped in that terrible cycle; these people are still dramatically impacted today by what happened even though it was over 150 years ago. I feel the same way about the developing world. Some people believe that the problems in the 3rd world have nothing to do with them and strongly oppose assistance to them. But in truth the developed world owes its wealth and hegemony by historically exploiting the developing world. I don't expect anyone to feel quilty about what others have done or for their relative wealth and comfortable lifestyle, but to feel some sense of obligation to do something or to encourage their government to do something about it. And the fact that there were very clear treaties and laws (which are likely to be still legally binding today) that were violated repeatedly and shamelessly in times of stable governance... there really isn't an excuse for such inaction by the US government.

    And while I agree simply guestures are not enough, apologies do mean something. You should have seen how the Aboriginies reacted when they received a formal and unequivocal apology from the Australian Government (even though the abuses and time period were quite different). It was very moving.
    Actually, the owe their "dominance" to their geography and climate. Some also argue , the cultivation and consumption of the potato.

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