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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    you see poland is to germany as canada is to usa and oklahoma is to kansas as bavaria is to thuringia..
    Gee, thanks for the help with the definition of a...what did you call it? Oh yes..."country". My inadequate American education system only has time to teach me about creationism, celebrity couples, and the evils of Islam.

    Honestly, your body of work on this forum indicates that you'd put the dumbest, fattest, most willfully ignorant American to shame with your self-satisfied arrogance.
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  2. #12
    Sniffles
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    Native Americans drove each other off their lands as well, and the White man couldn't have been able to conquer as much territory as he did without the assitance of other tribes who were eagered to settle old scores, such as the Crows for example.

  3. #13
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    As a Jew, I find this a very sticky issue.

    Once people have settled in somewhere, it's very difficult to get them out short of, well, genocide. Yes, Native Americans were wronged. Of course they were. They were wronged very, very badly. And that was bad.

    But. If you were going to move whites forcibly from lands they inhabit right now so that the Native Americans could have them, they would get violent, just like, well, the Natives had. This is human nature to not want to be moved forcibly. And, the United States Military would have to step in, and things would get messy. Of course, the United States Military would definitely have the power to do so now and it wouldn't be as difficult as destroying the Native American's lands and rights, but do two wrongs make a right?

    If we look at history, slaughter and abuse and massacre has happened for a long, long time in the past. Let's learn from this. Something needs to be fixed. But forcing (horrifically greedy) whites off of their (horribly capitalized and polluted) lands will cause problems and probably won't fix any.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #14
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Actually, Poland is to Mexico as Germany is to America, but I guess that's a bit beside the point.

    And actually if it weren't for European imperial threats the United States would be much more like each individual country in Europe as they are right now due to the EU. States are vestigial organs in the US, which they will soon become in Europe.



    Then again, if we take the logical conclusion of the video into effect, how would you, as a European, Mr. INTP, like 225 million White Americans knocking on your door, saying they need to be let in to 'come back home'?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #15
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    People have been conquering & slaughtering other people & taking their land as far back as history records (much of it in Europe...and definitely some in the Americas long before Europeans showed up). Are we going to go back to the "beginning of time" and figure out whose land is whose & give it back? What happened in the past is beside the point; the point is to help people NOW who have a poor quality of life. So many white (& non-white) people immigrated to this country long after the natives were conquered (I have no "white guilt"; this is NOT "my" history), and now we're all here together & should work on getting along as a whole, not continuing to find reasons for division & resentment. It seems poverty in general is the real problem in this case; it definitely needs a solution, but I don't see how changing the hands of land ownership is the solution. How will that solve the issues of poverty, alcoholism, poor education, etc? Will these people's needs really be satisfied with land? It seems to me they will not; no "restitution" of land will solve their social & economic ills, which seem to me to be the real problems.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #16
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I have yet to see a TED talk that didn't inspire or move me in some way. This one drives a point into your heart. It's a story of greed. It's true and it's horrible. Most people in the U.S. know all of this at some level. The sins occurred a long time ago - mostly over 100 years ago. Slavery was horrible as well. I think it was, if anything, far worse (though not limited to the U.S.)

    All of these things being said, the U.S. has been a land of opportunity. Large numbers of people immigrate - both legal and illegal. The fact is that the world changes in ways that are often quite unfair and we must adjust to these changes. As humans, we have the intelligence to redirect our energies - especially across generations - into more fruitful pastures.

    50% of my family (heritage) was from Ireland. They were poor immigrants. They started with nothing in the U.S. They worked hard and each generation attempted to give the next a little better chance. On average, things have gotten a little better as time goes on.

    My opinion - at the risk of being harsh - is that there is no point in getting stuck in the past. Old history is old history. People need to move on. There is a book I read a number of years ago, called "Culture Matters." It's relevant to the discussion I think.

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  7. #17
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    It would be an interesting cultural study to see what type would stay on an Indian reservation. Would ExTPs leave, for example? Would STJs stay? it's just a theory but I wonder if certain types would stay and others would go and what the patterns on such things would be.

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  8. #18
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    As a Jew, I find this a very sticky issue.

    Once people have settled in somewhere, it's very difficult to get them out short of, well, genocide. Yes, Native Americans were wronged. Of course they were. They were wronged very, very badly. And that was bad.

    But. If you were going to move whites forcibly from lands they inhabit right now so that the Native Americans could have them, they would get violent, just like, well, the Natives had. This is human nature to not want to be moved forcibly. And, the United States Military would have to step in, and things would get messy. Of course, the United States Military would definitely have the power to do so now and it wouldn't be as difficult as destroying the Native American's lands and rights, but do two wrongs make a right?

    If we look at history, slaughter and abuse and massacre has happened for a long, long time in the past. Let's learn from this. Something needs to be fixed. But forcing (horrifically greedy) whites off of their (horribly capitalized and polluted) lands will cause problems and probably won't fix any.
    Its not that difficult. New Zealand has been systematically doing this on a huge scale for 20 years. As a result we have among the best race relations in the world. It has preserved the native culture and intergrated it into the mainstream. Its not without its problems of course but I think it has significantly improved things.

    Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    People have been conquering & slaughtering other people & taking their land as far back as history records (much of it in Europe...and definitely some in the Americas long before Europeans showed up). Are we going to go back to the "beginning of time" and figure out whose land is whose & give it back? What happened in the past is beside the point; the point is to help people NOW who have a poor quality of life. So many white (& non-white) people immigrated to this country long after the natives were conquered (I have no "white guilt"; this is NOT "my" history), and now we're all here together & should work on getting along as a whole, not continuing to find reasons for division & resentment. It seems poverty in general is the real problem in this case; it definitely needs a solution, but I don't see how changing the hands of land ownership is the solution. How will that solve the issues of poverty, alcoholism, poor education, etc? Will these people's needs really be satisfied with land? It seems to me they will not; no "restitution" of land will solve their social & economic ills, which seem to me to be the real problems.
    I agree with your sentiment and it is increasingly becoming a prevelant view in NZ. There is a point where everyone must move on and become united as a people.

    However it must be acknowledge that all White Americans continue to benefit from the wrongs that were commited; just as the current problems of the Native Americans are a indirect result of historical abuses of rights by the Whites. It is important to acknowledge and redress such injustices for everyone to genuinely move on; to fail to is to ignore a festering wound of bitterness and loss. Forgiveness should not be demanded nor expected without real commitment to address what wrongs were done in the first place. And from what I understand (as an outsider) there has barely been even acknowledgement in the US by the governement that anything genuinely wrong was done. It is treated like a few 'unfortunate incidents' they wish to forget.

    Land and monetary settlements have been particularly successful with some tribes in NZ to create jobs and pull local communities out of miserable circumstances. But it need not be grand financial settlements; in NZ there has been a lot more cultural claims to protect places of significance to the Maori of that area and respect their ties to it. Institutionalizing cultural respect and restoring cultural pride goes a long way to changing a people.
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  9. #19
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross: It's a bit like beating someone to the pulpy point where you're sure if you try to help them they're going to try to claw your eyes out with the last of their strength.
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  10. #20
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    However it must be acknowledge that all White Americans continue to benefit from the wrongs that were commited; just as the current problems of the Native Americans are a indirect result of historical abuses of rights by the Whites.
    This sounds like "guilt by association", as if being white in itself makes a person to blame, regardless of their actual connection to a crime. There are plenty of non-whites who have since immigrated who "benefit" from these wrongs also; what is the difference between a German & a Chinese person who immigrated later on? I don't see how having a certain skin color automatically makes someone guilty of a past atrocity unrelated to their own history. I draw the line there. The government may issue some apology, but no, I do not owe one, nor do I need "forgiveness". Finding a solution is another story; that's just basic humaneness. I agree if the government is going to formally apologize, then they need some action to back those words up; possibly why it has not been issued....
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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