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  1. #1
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Default Defining what is

    This has got me thinking after reading last night about Taoism.

    We live in a society where we label, explain or defend. I'm aware of why we do it but are we potentially missing out on something extraordinary in the process.

    Quote - We must bask in the magnificence of what is seen and sensed, instead of always memorizing and categorizing.

    How liberating would it be if we didn't have a definition of intelligence, a label for a condition or distinguishable trait?

    I don't a damn how i'm perceived (some of the time) but when i talk to people i won't cut myself off from someone who i perceived to be of less intelligence than myself. Possibly this person is intelligent but is comfortable enough not to scream from the hilltops every piece of knowledgeable information they have ever required. Their silence is ...

    How pleasant would it be to not have to prove a point everytime, to not judge another person and instead to just let it be ..

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    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
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  2. #2

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    You dont have to prove a point, although that doesnt mean you dont have or actually dont make a judgement.

    A lot of the non-judgemental culture is phony, people make judgements and have preferences, like it or not, its often better to be honest about that and reflect upon how it can and does influence how you feel and interact than deny it altogether.

    In the past I've been wary of this approach because of who was advocating it, unabashed bigots who're comfortable with their bigotry and expect others to adjust to them talking about how everyone is a little bit (in the context of northern ireland) sectarian, well, no, I dont feel everyone is a little bit sectarian or that sectarianism is endemic in northern ireland and passed on with mothers milk or in the air supply.

    I do have what I consider to be reasonable criteria for differentiating between creedos though and to some people if that doesnt mean supporting their creedo then I'm sectarian, that's faulty logic and lousy reasoning but anyhow, I'm not intolerant but I dont confuse tolerance with acceptance, positive regard or parity of esteem.

    People shouldnt really be comfortable with being bigoted, although in the end they have to live their life and no one can do that for them, I think that on balance bigotry is bound to be more waring that rewarding, it certainly requires more thought, attention and reflection than indifference or holding your own opinion and being satisfied with that. There's also a certain sense in which bigot hunting becomes as arduous as bigotry but that's perhaps a different question and complicates things.

    In relation to judgements and judgementalism and the criteria you mentioned, intelligence, are you worried about people judging you on the grounds of intelligence, is it something which others are doing which bugs you? I do believe that people can be dismissive of people who appear to lack intelligence too quickly, they can possess good simple insights, the worse creeds and most monsterous deeds generally are perpetrated by people who possess enough intellect. If someone has great emotional intelligence or social intelligence, if they can behave with manners or decorum, then generally I'll like them a lot more than someoen who doesnt, whatever that persons intellect or IQ may be. The sort of people I like the most possess both though.

    I'm not sure if its Taoism or Confucianism but one of them did have a key figure who thought that labelling was positively important, that things had a correct name and should be considered and spoken about correctly, the adoption of the creedo by the rulers at the time had a transformative effect on culture and very mind/brain, its why sometimes when translated to english words can appear very literal or strange because the dialect is so different.

  3. #3
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    This has got me thinking after reading last night about Taoism.

    We live in a society where we label, explain or defend. I'm aware of why we do it but are we potentially missing out on something extraordinary in the process.

    Quote - We must bask in the magnificence of what is seen and sensed, instead of always memorizing and categorizing.

    How liberating would it be if we didn't have a definition of intelligence, a label for a condition or distinguishable trait?

    I don't a damn how i'm perceived (some of the time) but when i talk to people i won't cut myself off from someone who i perceived to be of less intelligence than myself. Possibly this person is intelligent but is comfortable enough not to scream from the hilltops every piece of knowledgeable information they have ever required. Their silence is ...

    How pleasant would it be to not have to prove a point everytime, to not judge another person and instead to just let it be ..

    Thoughts
    I do understand very well what you mean and I am glad that I am not the only one feeling it.

    I personally have for the first time now in my new job, discovered an environment of people who have stable personalities and can live their daily lifes with each other, accepting and respecting each other, not having a constant need to spit out their thoughts.
    I think its a thing that comes with age and you wont probably find it here, cause as sad as it to say, most people here havent had that kind of level up yet.

    You maybe should look for some new friends or what you can do to is move to Germany, we have a saying that is: "Talk is silver, silence is gold" (tho I think this has a different meaning )
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    Default

    I've been thinking about this, and to further expand on what appeals to me is the disappearance of "one-upping." I think it would be great if people could share their stories without someone judging them or trying to one-up their story. A lot of times I do keep things to myself because I don't like it when I share something with someone and they immediately turn around and say "Well, I did this." Youtube is a good example of the judging a person... A person films something silly that their kid or pet did and someone inevitably goes on youtube and posts a comment about how horrible of a person they are for laughing at it.... It would just be nice if people would loosen up and relax and just enjoy the company of others for a change!

  5. #5
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Agreed, I'm pissed by this aswell and you gave an idea where this could stem from. Could maybe be the internet that makes it more easy for people to develop a general one-up attitude. Question then would be why do people have the need to always for example have done a thing aswell, you did or to look better than you in their things.

    I've no idea. Maybe small p-ness
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    I understand the point behind the idea. At the same time, there is nothing more rewarding than growing in conversation with other people. Nothing more rewarding than sharing experiences AND thoughts.

    Think of it this way, if you are comfortable with who you are and your thoughts why would you be afraid of other people judging your thoughts, and why not want to share them with other people. One is responsible for one's own thoughts and level of comfort with such thoughts. We shouldn't be dependent on the approval of other people.

    So to me, it's really about sharing. Communication is the most important element in relationships. There's this idea that simply enjoy someone else's presence is the peak of satisfaction........what that means I think, is that you've achieved a level of self-confidence that enables you to bask in your own internal peace of thought(lessness). It has nothing to do with the other individual. So people, I think, confuse enjoy someone else's mere presence with enjoying one's own presence.

    There's nothing wrong with enjoying one's own presence, being at peace with one's inner self. That is great, and everyone should strive to be in that state. However, communication is even better PROVIDED you are comfortable with your own self.

    When you are, even the most antagonist people you meet, can give you pleasure in communication.

  7. #7
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    I understand the point behind the idea. At the same time, there is nothing more rewarding than growing in conversation with other people. Nothing more rewarding than sharing experiences AND thoughts.

    Think of it this way, if you are comfortable with who you are and your thoughts why would you be afraid of other people judging your thoughts, and why not want to share them with other people. One is responsible for one's own thoughts and level of comfort with such thoughts. We shouldn't be dependent on the approval of other people.

    So to me, it's really about sharing. Communication is the most important element in relationships. There's this idea that simply enjoy someone else's presence is the peak of satisfaction........what that means I think, is that you've achieved a level of self-confidence that enables you to bask in your own internal peace of thought(lessness). It has nothing to do with the other individual. So people, I think, confuse enjoy someone else's mere presence with enjoying one's own presence.

    There's nothing wrong with enjoying one's own presence, being at peace with one's inner self. That is great, and everyone should strive to be in that state. However, communication is even better PROVIDED you are comfortable with your own self.

    When you are, even the most antagonist people you meet, can give you pleasure in communication.
    Well it's not the point that one would want to completly shut out other peoples experiences from your own life. In german language it is for example considered polite to ask someone if he wants to hear your opinion on a matter before saying it and as far as I know ma'mericans it's wanted aswell.

    The thing is, if you constantly have to face peoples experiences without mercy, it more develops into everyone shouting their experiences but not really sharing them. So, tho I absolutely agree with you, I think your proposal in practice has the exact antieffect to what is sharing ones experience.

    Which brings one again to the thought of individualisation. Is maybe the increasing demand by people to individualise and to not define themselves over a group, the reason for why there is so much demand to talk sometimes ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #8
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Me, alone in my room , talking out loud is not communication. What I mean by this is that talking and communicating can be different. Communication is talking and listening.

    When people do both, without fear of judgement, that's communicating.

    I'd also like to make the distinction of communicating and sharing one's experience. Communication is more than that too. It's fusing your train of thought with someone else's. Sharing facts can only be interesting for so long. Sharing thought processes, the WHY of what we think, that's true communication, that enables growing.

    If I say I believe in A, and you say believe in B there is no communication. If I explain why I believe in A and you explain why you believe in B, there is the opportunity for true sharing. It stops about being YOU and ME. It's about the ideas.

    Individualisation would is not being open to having your mind changed when you start communicating. It would just be STATING your opinion, not communicating. Not sharing. Not coming together. It wouldn't be a chance to grow closer to people.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    Me, alone in my room , talking out loud is not communication. What I mean by this is that talking and communicating can be different. Communication is talking and listening.

    When people do both, without fear of judgement, that's communicating.

    I'd also like to make the distinction of communicating and sharing one's experience. Communication is more than that too. It's fusing your train of thought with someone else's. Sharing facts can only be interesting for so long. Sharing thought processes, the WHY of what we think, that's true communication, that enables growing.

    If I say I believe in A, and you say believe in B there is no communication. If I explain why I believe in A and you explain why you believe in B, there is the opportunity for true sharing. It stops about being YOU and ME. It's about the ideas.

    Individualisation would is not being open to having your mind changed when you start communicating. It would just be STATING your opinion, not communicating. Not sharing. Not coming together. It wouldn't be a chance to grow closer to people.
    I can agree with this. There is nothing more frustrating than trying to have a conversation with someone who shares different beliefs in something, but won't tell you why they believe a certain way. I would much rather have a conversation with someone who is open to how I look at things, and will open up to me about how they see things. I remember an ex from several years back was not a religious guy, but he could explain why some people were better than most Christians I know. He was a sponge, any time someone around him spoke about their opinion on a subject he just soaked it up and could recall it later to try and help others understand other people's point of view. I really admired that about him. He was so open and never judgmental.

  10. #10
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Lol, when you describe "how nice it would be if people weren't doing x judgmental thing, how liberating" etc..

    Especially in the type of situation you describe where people disregard people who they believe are unintelligent/immoral or who they disagree with, and the disagreement is taken personally or seen as a sort of defiance to the individual's ideas of reasoning or morality. They choose to believe there is nothing to be learned or gained from opening themselves up to something they aren't comfortable with, or they are too caught up in defending their own beliefs that they cannot accept that other points of view may have reasons to exist. This is a highly nonprogressive way to live - cutting oneself off from those that they cannot initially understand, with the belief that even an attempt at understanding will have no merit. Agreement/disagreement in shared values/ideas is what immediately defines how they approach others, and meeting them with negativity is considered a standard and appropriate response to diagreement.

    Lots of people do this. This includes people who like to believe that it is okay to occasionally feel superior to others, allowing them to look down upon them. Sadly they do not see it for the douchetastic attitude that it is. Understandably, it is a natural way of acting for many - it can be confounding, frustrating, or disappointing to discover that someone doesn't share the same viewpoint as you. Even so, there are many benefits of suppressing this initial response in order to look past it and be able to understand more of the different ways of functioning that take place in the world around you and therefore benefit from a greater variety of interactions and situations.

    Then again, some people don't mind being douches. In that case all you can do is just let them be douches and don't get involved with their douchery.
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