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  1. #21
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Why is F more holistic than T?
    T can detach and observe from many perspectives, not just one.
    I think what he's referring to is: When someone presents and idea, T will break it apart and check for inconsistencies before accepting it. F will see how it could fit in with what they already know (which is a holistic approach). These are default states/reflexes, of course... an F can proceed to break stuff up, and a T can unite.

    Note: I haven't thought through whether or not I agree with this.

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

  2. #22
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Why is F more holistic than T?
    T can detach and observe from many perspectives, not just one.
    That's cause you use Ti for each of your Ne paths. Now imagine using a less linear cognitive process being used for each of those Ne paths and you can appreciate why exactly we NFPs are so fucked up :P

    So basically what I mean is "that's because you're an N".


    Quote Originally Posted by Tabula View Post
    I'm not really sure what you mean by slave.

    Without launching into a comprehensive account of my life story, I'll just say that I've basically been in isolation since adolescence. It facilitated the development of a sort of "prejudice" against Fe. Again, I'm not going to get into every single reason for it, and nor did I know that "prejudice" was what I had as it happened, this is partly how I discovered that I'm an F, and not a T (as I'd thought for a very long time) in retrospect, of course.

    I'd been stuck in NiTi for 7 years. It still has a distinct aftertaste, but I'm more aware of it now, and so am better equipped to deal with it within the correct context.

    "Slave" in the sense of not really understanding that they were, in fact, emotions and so not being able to directly deal with them in any effectual manner. The relationship between my emotions and I is still very much a childish one, and it still takes me longer than it should to recognize that I have any. If you mean slave in the sense that consciously allow them to control most everything I do...no, quite the opposite; I try to consciously weed them OUT.

    Hmmph. Make of this what you will.
    That's the kind of honest insightful post I wanted yep

  3. #23
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Default ENFJ? maybe

    I am going to be honest. I feel annoyed that my emotions are so strong that it is very hard to separate and be objective. I am an F and decide on values or personally a lot and Ti is inferior and I usually do best talking with an objective outsider in my personal life situations. I am emotional and strongly expressed when so. I am all or nothing and I have seen other ENFJ's comment on this style as well.

    I think I am objective with advising other's people because it is external. The hard part is that ENFJ is not necessarily best at being factual or objective. I am perceptive and personal.

    SO not a slave but definitely overpowered and expressive to a fault sometimes and blind some to objectivity once I accept someone into my personal life. My T friends notice this so maybe this thread has some validity unfortunately.
    Extroverted (E) 67.74% Introverted (I) 32.26%
    Intuitive (N) 51.72% Sensing (S) 48.28%
    Feeling (F) 51.61% Thinking (T) 48.39%
    Judging (J) 69.44% Perceiving (P) 30.56%

    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
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  4. #24
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggletron View Post
    It's pretty hard to act without thinking, literally anyway. Thoughts lead to emotions, they don't just jump out of holes in the earth like dwarves.


    I agree, but in my understanding of what Fi is, my "thoughts" ARE "feelings". My feelings are rational evaluations that stem from some vague unconscious knowing of the ideal. My emotions can clue me into these - they provide a response to external stimuli which I can choose to regard or not. I agree these emotions aren't just coming out of nowhere - they are signaling a connection to an ideal, and in that sense they stem from feeling-thoughts & spur a feeling-thought process.

    So it's not a matter of
    emotions --> act/expression, but
    existing feeling-values/ideals (often in a vague form) ----> external stimuli ----> emotions -----> feeling reasoning that considers the emotions among other criteria -----> expression/act/formation of a specific value out of a vague ideal feeling.

    So I USE my emotions a lot, but they are not my sole criteria for judging (or even always a part of my criteria at all), and they are not HOW I make decisions. I make decisions through a rational evaluation process, but instead of logic, my premise is based on what is ideal.

    Sometimes people do just act on emotion without reasoning, but any type can be guilty of that. I think some Feelers can trust their emotions TOO much because they've proven useful, and this is when they seem irrational. However, Thinkers' thought processes can certainly become steamrolled by emotion also. They may simply be more in the habit of ignoring emotions, which can result in a whole different way of being ridiculous.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #25
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    No, feeling is not "more holistic" than thinking. You cannot come to a logical conclusion using feeling. How do you use feeling to judge whether or not a statistic is accurate? (For example)
    You lose.

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  6. #26
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    No, feeling is not "more holistic" than thinking. You cannot come to a logical conclusion using feeling. How do you use feeling to judge whether or not a statistic is accurate? (For example)
    How about an instinct or gut feeling that leads to logical deduction which then is able to create a statistic?
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
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  7. #27
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    How about an instinct or gut feeling that leads to logical deduction which then is able to create a statistic?
    Yes, but that isn't just feeling. That's using feeling to make a decision to use thinking.
    You lose.

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  8. #28
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post


    I agree, but in my understanding of what Fi is, my "thoughts" ARE "feelings". My feelings are rational evaluations that stem from some vague unconscious knowing of the ideal. My emotions can clue me into these - they provide a response to external stimuli which I can choose to regard or not. I agree these emotions aren't just coming out of nowhere - they are signaling a connection to an ideal, and in that sense they stem from feeling-thoughts & spur a feeling-thought process.

    So it's not a matter of
    emotions --> act/expression, but
    existing feeling-values/ideals (often in a vague form) ----> external stimuli ----> emotions -----> feeling reasoning that considers the emotions among other criteria -----> expression/act/formation of a specific value out of a vague ideal feeling.

    So I USE my emotions a lot, but they are not my sole criteria for judging (or even always a part of my criteria at all), and they are not HOW I make decisions. I make decisions through a rational evaluation process, but instead of logic, my premise is based on what is ideal.

    Sometimes people do just act on emotion without reasoning, but any type can be guilty of that. I think some Feelers can trust their emotions TOO much because they've proven useful, and this is when they seem irrational. However, Thinkers' thought processes can certainly become steamrolled by emotion also. They may simply be more in the habit of ignoring emotions, which can result in a whole different way of being ridiculous.
    ^ +1

    Especially the stuff in bold.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #29
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    No, I am not a slave to my emotions. I am quite capable of making decisions using my head rather than my heart (for example, leaving my ex when our relationship was extremely unhealthy although I was still in love with him)...I do not relate to (perhaps immature) ENFPs who say that they would stray from a commitment if they weren't "feeling it", either, because being an F means "ethical" and ethics aren't guided by bad or good moods, and real love transcends bad days and periods of boredom.

    Now, I will say that relationships probably are my achilles heel, though. I am far more likely to become irrational or be guided by my emotions in a romantic context.

    But in general? No. Being an NF means that many of my interests are focused on human psychology, sociology, human history, politics...in essence, the humanities. I think about human beings in the abstract. I also take the human (and animal) consequence into account when I make decisions, so that's also an ethical concern, and therefore F.

    If F meant slave to emotion then there couldn't be Ts with anger problems. Et cetera. And so forth.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Depending on position of cognitive processes, my guess would be that if Tx is a tert process, it's likely a more refined and comfortable process to offset or trump the more dominant feeling process. Inferior processes are called inferior for a good reason. They suck unless actively worked on to improve and properly assimilate.
    This.

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