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  1. #61
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    EDIT: Though, to be fair, Twilight haters are more vehement too.
    Haha, sounds about right.

    Maybe I wouldn't hate it so much if it didn't mindlessly take over the minds of thousands of girls.

  2. #62
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Can you guys please enlighten me? Is it because the the male leads are supposed to be uber "hot"? I swear that my brother is better looking than the Edward character.
    Before the movies, the novel series grew popular due to how astoundingly effective Meyer was at delivering the "romantic fluff" to a pace where it'd keep the readers on the edge of their seats, even if they lost interest in everything else. Not much could be said about her writing style, character's development, or plot, but for her target audience and intention, Meyer proved to be more than just a good entertainer. To inspire so much intense dislike (where people would set up websites to critique every installment page by page, line by line) and adoration (the millions of Twilight movie-goers) at the same time, it takes one heck of an individual to accomplish that. Our existing pop-culture helped increased the popularity exponentially, once her series hit the mainstream.

    As for myself, I couldn't make it past the first book, sorry. I had a difficult time with accepting Bella as the main character! When I began micro-complaining about her decisions and personality as I turned the pages, I knew it was a sign that I needed to quit the series. I can't stomach the damsel-in-distress archetype, especially if they're irritating from page 1 to begin with.
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  3. #63
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    ^ How many romance novels have you read?
    How many romance novels I've read doesn't really have to do with my opinion on how I think that the characters in Twilight aren't really deep. The acting is pretty bad too; anyone who's seen interviews will know that Kristen Stewart had a hard time with Bella's character because she said that Bella was basically depthless.

    I haven't read the books but I've heard that they are a lot better. The books usually are anyway.

    Doubt you'll see this due to the delayed response, but yep.
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  4. #64
    The Duchess of Oddity Queen Kat's Avatar
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    Okay, why is Taylor Lautner hot again? He looks a bit like a piggy, with those eyes and that nose.
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
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  5. #65
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    To be clear, I don't hate Twilight but I tend to be very skeptical of things in popculture (if you can even say that).
    As do I.

    As do I.

    I will NEVER simply accept something, ever.

    Guess what, Avatar was ridiculously popular, and... I LOVED IT! It's made me cry each time I watched it.

    I've been wearing Uggs since 97' and I'll continue to do so, before the craze started, during and after.

    If you like something, you like it, that's all that matters.

    What I can't stand is people who hate on something simply because it's popular, that's idiotic, if the thing that you hate is idiotic then fine, but to hate something simply because it's popular, and conversely to love something simply because it's unpopular sounds soooooo what's that word, hmm, hipster... <--- no, the irony does not evade me, I hate those muthafuckas for realz, yo!

    I can FULLY understand how someone would think the Twilight movies are/were RIDICULOUS, they're not some cinematic works of brilliant art.

    Like, duh.

    I also can understand how someone wouldn't care for the series/books, I dunno, I loved them, but I agree, with whomever brought it up, Bella, though smart and courageous in her own right is portrayed as kinda weak compared to the other romantic hellions I'm used to. :P



    She's shy and awkward, must romantic heroines I identify with are bold and defiant, they don't need to be rescued...

    And, regarding the person who brought up Edward being abusive?@@



    I'm sorry, but if IRL, I could find a man who was as intelligent as Edward, most of his intelligence is implicitly shown,( and it's Stephanie Meyer's lack of intellect that make all of her character suffer, unfortunately, but that's another issue for another thread :P), handsome, well-read, out-of-this world in love with me, to the point where he wants to do me no harm or have no harm done to me, to the point where he wants to know everything about me and be with me until the day I die, to the point where he will constantly sacrifice his life, and other things to BE WITH ME,

    I dunno about you, but I think it's hot, when a guy can be quiet, uber-intelligent, oh fuck, and he reads minds!!!

    If I met a guy who could do that, my panties would be straight droppin'.



    Anyhow, I love how protective he is of her, I LOVE IT.

    I love how jealous he gets, I LOVE IT.

    Hmmmmmmmmm

    I would like to reread the novels.



    Or some other faves I've got.

    They make me feel all happy and gushy on the inside.
    `
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  6. #66
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post

    And, regarding the person who brought up Edward being abusive?@@
    I didn't say he was, I said that it was one of the common complaints I've seen against the series. I don't know enough about the overall series to properly comment.

    You can find a number of sites talking about this. Here's one argument for him being emotional abusive that seems decently strong (spoilers for the series, if anyone cares):

    The first thing any girl hears in a dating violence discussion is that jealousy is not love. Yet Edward is critically jealous of Jacob Black, one of Bella’s family friends. Edward pushes Jacob aside from the end of Twilight where, when Jacob asks Bella if she’d like another dance, Edward answers “I’ll take it from here.” Perhaps Bella would prefer to dance with Edward – but it’s her decision to tell Jacob that, not Edward’s. The situation only escalates as Jacob becomes closer to Bella. In a confrontation at the end of New Moon, Bella is genuinely afraid for Jacob’s life. Fans of the series might say “Oh, but Jacob is a werewolf – they’re historical enemies.” Would this excuse an English beau from threatening an Irish friend?

    Moreover, in Eclipse, Edward is intent on keeping Bella from associating with Jacob at all. When she says in the first chapter that she’s planning on visiting Jacob without Edward if necessary, he says simply “I’ll stop you.” That is to say, he is willing to use physical force rather than let his girlfriend see one of her closest friends. And it does come to force – to removing a vital part from Bella’s truck and bribing Alice to keep Bella under house arrest when he isn’t around.

    A general dislike of Jacob would be understood. But taking steps to prevent your partner from spending time with someone that you dislike is abuse, plain and simple. And his surprising calm after Bella kisses Jacob seems more indicative to me of a cycle of abuse and reconciliation than any real resolution.

    Jealousy is a control tactic. As such, it is often paired with isolation – a technique most familiar in cult dynamics. As soon as Edward and Bella begin dating, Edward criticizes her friends as ‘shallow.’ Bella soon stops going anywhere with other friends. Not having formed strong bonds before Edward appears on the scene, Bella never bothers to form them at all. The isolation is so complete that when Edward leaves in the beginning of New Moon, Bella spends three months in a depressed state before rediscovering her other friends. Yes, it’s understandable to want to spend time with your boyfriend. But when you have quite literally no life outside of them – when their absence leaves you so utterly lost – that is unhealthy. And it is wrong of Edward to encourage it. As already demonstrated with Jacob Black, Bella is capable of forming strong friendships when Edward isn't monopolizing her time.

    Moreover, a part of this isolation is fully and unarguably intentional. When Edward leaves Bella, he flat-out forbids Alice, Bella’s best friend at the time, from seeing her. His motivation? To ensure a “clean break.” But it is Bella’s right to decide when and how she wants to forget about their relationship. Presuming to dictate her healing process for her is the height of control – it is assuming that you have the right to a person’s thoughts.

    Abandonment is yet another control tactic. It is emotionally jarring, disruptive, and, if timed properly, can convince the target that their life is less worthwhile without the abuser. I have been the subject of this treatment myself – and, if it were not for my close friends, it would have worked. Thanks to isolation, Bella has no such friends. When Edward resurfaces, she immediately clings to him more desperately than before. He has become her only lifeline.

    Of course, Edward resurfaces in that he attempts suicide. I don’t care what Romeo and Juliet says: suicide is not romantic. Apart from being mentally unstable, this is characteristic of abusive boyfriends. Many abused women remain with their boyfriends because they believe that they still love each other. They often feel responsible for their boyfriend, who tells them “I can’t live without you.” For obvious reasons, Bella doesn’t want to be responsible for Edward’s death. But because of this fear for his life, she stays in a self-destructive relationship.

    Perhaps Edward didn’t realize that Bella was alive when he tried to kill himself. But that just proves that he was unstable enough to go through with it – he had made the threat long before he made the attempt. Bella did not laugh off the threat – it shocked and horrified her. If Edward hurt himself, she felt it would be “because of her.” And that puts a burden of responsibility on her that no person can or should be made to bear.

    This sense of responsibility for his welfare also extends to lying to her father. Encouraged deception is a red flag for an abusive relationship. Yes, you can argue that Bella shouldn’t tell her father about Edward’s vampirism for the same reason that she wouldn’t tell anyone if he had AIDS: respect for privacy. But it is expected that she would tell her father when she is with her boyfriend. Lying is unnecessary. You can argue that Edward does not encourage her to lie, instead asking her to tell someone where she is. But this statement is consistently followed with ’So I know that if I kill you, I’ll get in trouble for it.’ (“To give me some small incentive to bring you back,” p 214) Predictably, it has the opposite effect: Bella, out of her sense of responsibility for her boyfriend, keeps their dates secret. Thus serving Edward’s ends. Many teenagers will lie to their parents about their dates without a second thought. But this doesn’t make it right. In fact, it only shows that Edward can’t plead ignorance regarding how Bella would react to his statement. Any mind reader will know what she’d do.

    Time and time again in Twilight, Edward frightens Bella. Fear is emotional abuse. It can also be used to assert control. Fans might say that Edward is constantly telling Bella how much he wants to kill her and giving unnecessary displays of strength in order to convince her not to stay with him. Why, then, doesn’t he take the lead and stay away from Bella? Why didn’t he stay in Alaska? Why didn’t he simply switch Biology classes? Because he’s “selfish.” If he is unable to stay away from her, he has no right to scare her. Calmly explaining the danger – once, as accurately as possible, without hyperbole – will suffice. And then a boy who really cared would help her take necessary precautions for her safety. For example, telling Charlie when they would be together. Or, having Carlisle chaperon. Or by having a double date with Alice and Jasper, or by sticking in public places, or any of dozens of other measures, since Edward clearly doesn’t believe that feeding often is precaution enough. But that would prevent Bella from swooning over his “devotion.”

    For that matter, why is he under the impression that seeing the dents his shoulders left in a car is insufficient to remind her that he is, in fact, stronger than your average human?

    Finally, Edward refuses to allow Bella to make her own decisions. She insists she does not want to go to the prom – he brings her there without telling her. She insists she doesn’t want a birthday party – he gives her a surprise party. She does not want to leave Charlie while James is loose – he throws her in the back seat and tells his brother to hold her down. When she resists, he either works around her back or manipulates her decision, kissing her until she forgets her argument. Real boyfriends respect their girlfriend’s right to a decision. Abusive boyfriends must make all the decisions – using force if necessary. It doesn’t matter whether he thinks he’s acting in her best interests or not. Free will is non-exchangeable. And it should be.

    The circumstances of their engagement is a perfect example of his inability to let her make her own decisions. He agrees, at the end of New Moon, that he will change her into a vampire if and only if she marries him first. Marriage is not a bargaining tool. Vampirism and marriage are both commitments – but they are separate commitments, and should be discussed separately. The fact that he never intended for her to make that bargain, that he used it as a delay, is not an excuse. Rather, it is further evidence of a need to manipulate the relationship according to his wants and needs.

    Likewise, when Bella decides that she does not want to apply to Dartmouth, he ignores her and forges her signature on the paperwork. Going to a college outside of the Ivy League will not place Bella’s life or even her general contentment in danger. Yet he resolves that it is his decision to make, not hers.

    A parallel incident can be found when he forges a note to Charlie in her handwriting on the day he leaves her in the middle of the woods. Yes, it turned out to be a good thing that Charlie knew that she was out there when she went missing, but no, that doesn't excuse forging a note when it would have been just as easy to write the note as himself: "Hey, Chief Swan, it's Edward. Bella and I are going for a walk in the woods. Be back soon."

    For those fans who insist on some definite physical, non-negotiable sign of abuse, recall how Edward enters her house after leaving her in New Moon and hides every one of her personal possessions associated with himself. Destroying someone’s stuff is never OK and always an abusive act. Even – especially! – when he’s trying to control her healing process. Add the fact that Edward is prone to watching Bella while she sleeps – repeatedly, without her knowledge – and you have one very unhealthy relationship.
    Another aspect that can be used as evidence is that he is clearly stalking her (watching her sleep every night) before he even properly meets her.

    Another, similar argument: Extra Credit: The Twilight Saga and domestic abuse
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  7. #67
    Member Sailboat's Avatar
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    Twilight is great because it allows you as a reader to explore the healthy sexual relationships and choices one can have in life. Between an abusive corpse, bestiality, and self-loathing masturbation... it's such an educational thriller.
    Pick up your crazy heart and give it one more try.

  8. #68
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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  9. #69
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Let me restate the question: what's so bad about Twilight? It's kinda suspicious if the number of haters nears the number of fans. It's a common phenomenon that cool people have to dislike twilight, the louder the better. The counter-hpye is just as, if not more, annoying as the hype itself.

    The first Twilight film I saw was not any worse than average. Girls like the protagonist because, let's be honest here, he is very attractive, a light version of the byronic hero. http://theocrit.sfasu.edu/docs/sprin...20Twilight.pdf

    Average girl meets intelligent, determined, protective, handsome etc. guy and they're together forever. That's pretty much it.

  10. #70
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Let me restate the question: what's so bad about Twilight? It's kinda suspicious if the number of haters nears the number of fans. It's a common phenomenon that cool people have to dislike twilight, the louder the better. The counter-hpye is just as, if not more, annoying as the hype itself.

    The first Twilight film I saw was not any worse than average. Girls like the protagonist because, let's be honest here, he is very attractive, a light version of the byronic hero. http://theocrit.sfasu.edu/docs/sprin...20Twilight.pdf

    Average girl meets intelligent, determined, protective, handsome etc. guy and they're together forever. That's pretty much it.
    Great post.

    `
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    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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