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  1. #51
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Personally I was hoping to see a Watchmen movie as I'm now reading through that but it appears the moguls are one step ahead of me and it's timed for release mid next year.
    I dread the release of that movie.

    I hope you're right and it's worthwhile.

    I'm so afraid it's going to end up like "V for Vendetta." (At least they nailed the central scene of that movie, though.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #52
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I dread the release of that movie.

    I hope you're right and it's worthwhile.
    I don't get though why fans of the book will go there expecting to see the book on screen. Is each night of a play the same as the last? No and they're done a lot closer together both in terms of time and components. Why not just approach the movie as about the same subject but with different interpretation and go enjoy it on it's own merits rather than having to live up to an idealised memory?

    Note that this particular piece of writing seems to have turned into a rant half way. It's not directed at you...more my friends who insist on critiquing the hell out of LOTR instead of just watching the damn thing or alternatively just shutting the hell up so I can
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm so afraid it's going to end up like "V for Vendetta." (At least they nailed the central scene of that movie, though.)
    That film was okay. IMO the storyline sucked a bit though as the main character was left all vague but ho hum. In comparison to most Segal films it was a gemstone and believe it or not I liked some of those Segal movies!

    Maybe I'm just easy to please?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #53
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I don't get though why fans of the book will go there expecting to see the book on screen. Is each night of a play the same as the last? No and they're done a lot closer together both in terms of time and components. Why not just approach the movie as about the same subject but with different interpretation and go enjoy it on it's own merits rather than having to live up to an idealised memory?
    Because I am critiquing the movie on its own terms.

    I don't watch any of these films after the first viewing because they are not compelling on their own, even not considering their source material.

    So it only hurts worse when I can envision the many ways something could have been better... and that many of the ways were already laid out in the source book. That last bit is a true kicker.

    I know I've seen some adaptations of books that I thought were good, even if they radically changed some of the source material. Books and movies are different mediums; what works on the page does not necessarily work on the screen. (In LotR, for example, it didn't bother me that Glorfindel got replaced by Arwen and that Aragorn's character was changed to be less a symbol of the approaching kingship and becoming a more unsure and self-doubting hero. Because it was done well and made sense.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #54
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Because I am critiquing the movie on its own terms.
    You've seen a better fantasy film?

    You're not one of these "artistic" fans are you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't watch any of these films after the first viewing because they are not compelling on their own, even not considering their source material.

    So it only hurts worse when I can envision the many ways something could have been better... and that many of the ways were already laid out in the source book. That last bit is a true kicker.
    Okay I'll bite, armchair critic. What's the ingenious idea?
    (Note I'm only replaying a response that I often get to similar claims because ti quite often is an interesting challenge in the end).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I know I've seen some adaptations of books that I thought were good, even if they radically changed some of the source material. Books and movies are different mediums; what works on the page does not necessarily work on the screen. (In LotR, for example, it didn't bother me that Glorfindel got replaced by Arwen and that Aragorn's character was changed to be less a symbol of the approaching kingship and becoming a more unsure and self-doubting hero. Because it was done well and made sense.)
    Oh I don't know Arwen pretty much got thumbs down from me. too much posing and not enough "suspension of disbelief". As for the scruff Aragorn, less a strider and more a surfer who can fight. Despite that though I can hold my criticisms to enjoy the film.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #55
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Because I am critiquing the movie on its own terms.
    I have to disagree... I'm a moderate fan of Tolkien, but I don't think anyone who can answer questions like in this thread can consider themselves objective towards the movies. This film won something like 20 academy awards, I think it broke previous award records. It grossed extremely well - all three of the movies... I know it beat out the old trilogies soundly. The acclaim for these movies was nothing short of incredible.

    Objectively, these movies were really good, almost by any measure you take. They might not be up for personal preference, but that's the point -the only people I have ever heard complain about the movies, including myself, have read the book... and lets face it, anyone who can get through the books has to be fairly involved. Tolkien is boring and dry to most of the population.

  6. #56
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Because I am critiquing the movie on its own terms.
    You should get points for effort at least. I can see that you're trying.

    It's just that none of us is nearly as objective as we think we are.

  7. #57
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I have to disagree... I'm a moderate fan of Tolkien, but I don't think anyone who can answer questions like in this thread can consider themselves objective towards the movies. This film won something like 20 academy awards, I think it broke previous award records. It grossed extremely well - all three of the movies... I know it beat out the old trilogies soundly. The acclaim for these movies was nothing short of incredible.

    Objectively, these movies were really good, almost by any measure you take. They might not be up for personal preference, but that's the point -the only people I have ever heard complain about the movies, including myself, have read the book... and lets face it, anyone who can get through the books has to be fairly involved. Tolkien is boring and dry to most of the population.
    That's because some of LotR *is* boring and dry. Especially most of the Two Towers. Tolkien tended to amble onwards like a historian describing minutia; look at an author like Michael Crieghton (sp?) to see someone who knows how to tell a story and cut out dross, even if he doesn't create enduring mythology.

    I'm a fan of the underlying structure and mythology of the books, not necessarily of the actual books themselves... although some of the scenes (such as the entire Moria sequence) are excellent.

    It's funny. You almost sound like you're telling me the movies were good because everyone liked them.

    I agree with the special effects, the technical precision, and all the "production" qualities that were involved in the movies. And to be a director and manage all of those details deserves an award.

    But I disagreed with any narrative/storytelling awards that were given for the latter two movies, there were definitely better movies released the same years in those areas. Honestly, I think Jackson would really have had to bomb the movies badly, to NOT have gotten a slamdunk simply because of his source material. Tolkien's work have prestige and heritage; it was a guaranteed money maker if styled for a general audience (not like Bakshi's emotionally inaccessible, paper-flat version). And honestly, he's working in a genre highlighted by works like Conan the Barbarian ... Do I need say more? It doesn't take much to shine.

    I think Jackson's remake of King Kong was FAR more compelling than LotR. And it was the movie he actually wanted to make; he only made LotR to get his foot in the door on King Kong originally, although it quickly became a labor of love.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You should get points for effort at least. I can see that you're trying. It's just that none of us is nearly as objective as we think we are.
    I didn't say I was completely objective. I simply was telling Xander that I wasn't directly comparing the movie to the book in terms of my disatisfaction, which is what he insinuated. Although that of course plays a role in it (I can't "forget" my knowledge of the book, I automatically bring it to the table), I tried to minimize its importance in my evaluation. I disliked LotR as movies in general. If they were decent in their own rights, I'd be able to watch and enjoy them now... but I find the second two boring and not worth my investment.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #58
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's funny. You almost sound like you're telling me the movies were good because everyone liked them.
    I am, effectively. If you have another objective measurement, I'm all for it. Reviewers, critics, awards, popularity. Seems like it was a pretty good movie series by most people's measure. And many people bought the series after...

    You don't hear very many people walking out the theatre going "Man, that story sucked". It might not be the best, but I feel that is the only thing that would of made this movie passable to you.

    Honestly, I think Jackson would really have had to bomb the movies badly, to NOT have gotten a slamdunk simply because of his source material.
    I have a cartoon you need to watch......

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    I actually watched the Rankin and Bass Hobbit the other day, just out of morbid nostalgia, and I don't usually tend to cringe at things. I found my exception.

    I grew up on the series, my dad would read it to us pretty much every year, and I must say, I loved the movies, but I was rather disappointed that it didn't capture the same feelings I had from the book. That also may be attributed to just enjoying my dad reading to me, but who knows. After I watched the extended editions though, I felt a little more comfortable in the story of the movies. A lot of important stuff was left out of the theatrical cut, and I think it made it a lot more cohesive and enjoyable.

    I still hate how they portrayed Faramir though, that still chaps my heiney.

  10. #60
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You don't hear very many people walking out the theatre going "Man, that story sucked". It might not be the best, but I feel that is the only thing that would of made this movie passable to you.
    I don't know. I tend not to categorize, I watch movies in lots of different genres, and some simply resonate and some do not. The second two movies just did not resonate enough to warrant a second watch.

    In general, I am very critical of what I watch regardless of genre, and the movies I label as "good" are those that resonate and are evocative and stick with me, either teaching me something about life or inspiring me to live more fully in some way. (For instance, I rewatched part of Gattaca last night, which is pseudo-scifi but really about deeper issues.)

    Now that you have made me think about it, very few live action fantasy movies for me fit into that category; I need something that does not focus on the fantasy but simply uses it to showcase something deeper.

    I have a cartoon you need to watch......
    *groan*
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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