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  1. #51
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I've encountered various types of this sort of behavior, and I try to keep some personal distance. Being an imagined victim is a sub-optimal way to approach life, so in its own way is worth a sort of concern. There is always a reason for the behavior which includes the person gaining a sense of personal control by using it as manipulation. Still though, that is not something that seems preferable to actually feeling strong inside. Who would aspire to being a perpetual victim? It's a way of coping, not a way of living.

    I try to make people feel strong, and consistently feel badly if I discover I have been dismissive. There is a danger of people in general having an initial reaction of dismissal even towards real problems. I don't think a person has to be controlled by someone's victim behavior to still show kindness and not be dismissive. Most people are stronger than they expect, and it can give a boost to have someone else recognize and verbalize that.

    I think a good approach can be based on something like, "That sounds like an awful thing to be feeling, but I've always admired that you survived these same sorts of things in the past because you have inner strength to match what you are facing." If I can give specific examples that's ideal. The truth is that I can't always know the degree of the problem. I find that looking for other people's strength allows me to not get pulled into it. It's the best approach to respect I have found.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  2. #52
    Junior Member oxyjen's Avatar
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    If enough evidence over time suggests that the person is a perpetual victim, wherein I think they are psychologically invested in maintaining that role, then I go with number 5. But that person will be focused on someone else, who does 1-4.

    I think the Karpman drama triangle is applicable in the situation, which means that enabling, problem-solving, and ignoring will push you into the rescuer role, and the criticism and confrontation pushes you into the Persecutor role. Most people only recognize the "Rescuer" response as being enforcing to the person paying victim, but someone with poor boundaries who falls into persecutor role can really do the same thing.

    I like to give them really absurd responses occasionally, or throw out a joke (a genuine one, not passive-aggressive or at their expense) or agreement hyperbole. Of course this isn't for their benefit (because I have already assessed that I cannot make them change), but it interrupts the role-scripts from happening and sometimes it's really dang fun.

  3. #53
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxyjen View Post
    I think the Karpman drama triangle is applicable in the situation, which means that enabling, problem-solving, and ignoring will push you into the rescuer role, and the criticism and confrontation pushes you into the Persecutor role. Most people only recognize the "Rescuer" response as being enforcing to the person paying victim, but someone with poor boundaries who falls into persecutor role can really do the same thing.\
    That's a good point....I always felt like the "tough love" approach can perpetuate the problem because it makes them feel attacked and they use that to further justify being a victim. You think you're giving them a wake-up call when you're just giving them another reason to see themselves as a victim.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #54
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Just reading some of the posts and recalling the video on Validation further back in the thread.

    Two phrases I avoid like the dickens when dealing with this type of issue are "that's OK" and "it will be alright"

    I tend to approach things from a rational perspective in the first instance and ask for the facts, then ask how it makes them feel and then what they could do about it.

    If they lack the contacts or tools (problem solving skills) to deal with these issues, I will find them and direct them to take action.

    If the person is obviously damaged (I successfully served on the anti-bullying committee to develop new and practical policy), I assist them a little further (may mean offering to support them through counselling or union processes) BUT in both instances, I will always tell them that improvement of the circumstances requires some action on their part!

    I have no desire to be part of any codependency!

    In many instance, in teaching in particular, we warn of behaviour that if continued will have negative consequences. We invariably have those who ignore this and still are not prepared to accept the consequences of their own actions.

    We recently had an international student who skipped most classes, did not submit assessment and could not show any of us that he had sufficient knowledge to be found competent. He stole another's work and submitted it as his own and was on a warning from Dept of immigration for his attendance and behaviour.

    In the last week of semester he was pleading with all of us multiple times to pass him regardless because he would otherwise lose face and face consequences from his family when he returned home to India.

    I dealt with him and told him that the consequences of his actions were not our problem and that it would be insulting to others who attended and worked hard if we were to pass him with no evidence.

    In effect - IT WAS NOT MY PROBLEM if he failed to heed the many warnings and chances given him!
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  5. #55
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I have no desire to be part of any codependency!
    The magic words really, great post.

  6. #56
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you think this tough love approach is more common online than in person? Or are there more enablers online than in person? Do you think that perhaps people with a need to detox or people with an inclination to give them a hearing are more likely to congregate online than in person? I've seen patterns, though while it could prove helpful to some it can be the exact opposite, all the news headline about online bullying, people driven to suicide and the like are evidence enough.

    Yes I think it is more common online - I have seen many instances including several of invented critical illnesses created for attention. On two of the occasions the people were caught out by others sympathetic to their situation who had sent them snail mail get well and thinking of you cards and gifts deciding to physically turn up and surprise the victim with real assistance.

    It didn't take long for those two instances too be made public to the forums concerned - thankfully not much in the way of financial gifting had occurred.

    In this environment people are able to adopt any persona they wish to portray!

    Those victims failing to get attention IRL may choose to seek attention in this way. Many creators of false personas are not particularly smart and are inconsistent in their portrayal so they are eventually picked up by someone with good analytical skills.

    I am part of a gaming community and a person who had been part of my team for all of two days suddenly popped up and asked what I thought about him moving to Canada from Kentucky because he was in love with a woman he had met online two months before but had never even spoken to by telephone.

    I am afraid I told him I was uncomfortable with the conversation and that I would personally consider changing my own life on such short online acquaintence, particularly where I wasn't cetain of the values the person held, or whether what she had been telling him was truth, would be extremely foolhardy but it was his choice and I didn't want to know any more about it.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  7. #57
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    Yes I think it is more common online - I have seen many instances including several of invented critical illnesses created for attention. On two of the occasions the people were caught out by others sympathetic to their situation who had sent them snail mail get well and thinking of you cards and gifts deciding to physically turn up and surprise the victim with real assistance.

    It didn't take long for those two instances too be made public to the forums concerned - thankfully not much in the way of financial gifting had occurred.

    In this environment people are able to adopt any persona they wish to portray!

    Those victims failing to get attention IRL may choose to seek attention in this way. Many creators of false personas are not particularly smart and are inconsistent in their portrayal so they are eventually picked up by someone with good analytical skills.

    I am part of a gaming community and a person who had been part of my team for all of two days suddenly popped up and asked what I thought about him moving to Canada from Kentucky because he was in love with a woman he had met online two months before but had never even spoken to by telephone.

    I am afraid I told him I was uncomfortable with the conversation and that I would personally consider changing my own life on such short online acquaintence, particularly where I wasn't cetain of the values the person held, or whether what she had been telling him was truth, would be extremely foolhardy but it was his choice and I didn't want to know any more about it.
    The internet has been a seriously mixed blessing in terms of providing people with outlets then. This sort of confirms some of my opinions and compares with some of my experiences, I visited another forum where someone feigned illness, even suicidal tendencies too, feigned being assaulted aswell and a different person feigned their death too by all accounts.

    I've only experienced on person a great to actively dislike, he made massive and constant statements about how his sexuality resulted in his oppression. I think he'd been beat up for coming on to groups of Chavs or Hoods in a park at one point and he lots of other unsavoury stories which he'd just suddenly erupt with in a kind of "I, cant, contain, myself, not, another, moment... BOOM! I once had sex on a train/in a park/at the beach, its illegal you know, big brother eh? I'm such a rebel, people cant be blamed for picking up underage girls on the premises of licenced nightclubs you know?". It was one of the rare instances I decided to be a complete tormentor and I used to regularly try to catch him out, either with how objectively sad some of the behaviour was or how much of it was fantasy. Although I got accused of bullying him, it could have been true though.

    The last two paragraphs are interesting, I've met people offline who I've had pretty heavy duty or involved interaction with online and by phone and pretty much every medium other than in person and its been pretty different in person.

    I'm really wary of people who would make dramatic changes like that but I can understand how the delusion sets in maybe, for my part I got fooled by a couple of long distance friendships and relationships that I had which did not begin online, I still have those ties and they work alright for me but, and its hard to say why sometimes, they are qualitively different from some of the relationships which whatever way they develop where originally online only.

  8. #58
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm really wary of people who would make dramatic changes like that but I can understand how the delusion sets in maybe, for my part I got fooled by a couple of long distance friendships and relationships that I had which did not begin online, I still have those ties and they work alright for me but, and its hard to say why sometimes, they are qualitively different from some of the relationships which whatever way they develop where originally online only.

    Me too but what also hit my alarm buttons was why he wanted the opinion on this of someone he had only spoken to about gaming for a short period???

    I am XNTP actually but part of me shies away from wanting to share anyone's intimate relationship details on an acquaintenceship like that!

    As far as long distance relationships go, being a female XNTP, many of my closest friendships have been with guys, but they have been mindmate friendships developed on similar interests, ways of thinking, philosophies, sense of humour etc.

    These also have at times been distance relationships but, though platonic, have been very special to me and continue to be in my mind and soul.

    These are different to the "I can live with you and your upsides and downsides on an intimate basis every day" - or as I told my daughter - who could you share your toothbrush with in an emergency!!
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  9. #59
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Guys, I'm away on hols so cant really post at length, although I was thinking about this in a wider context, also dont want to derail the thread, what is the poliitcal implications of this?

  10. #60
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Guys, I'm away on hols so cant really post at length, although I was thinking about this in a wider context, also dont want to derail the thread, what is the poliitcal implications of this?
    I will keep it bumped Lark. I am interested in your thoughts on this and political implications??? Meanwhile enjoy your break!
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

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