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  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Okay, I see it a little better now. Thank you for explaining more clearly, Lark, and I'm sorry if I sounded like a hard-ass.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you think this tough love approach is more common online than in person? Or are there more enablers online than in person? Do you think that perhaps people with a need to detox or people with an inclination to give them a hearing are more likely to congregate online than in person? I've seen patterns, though while it could prove helpful to some it can be the exact opposite, all the news headline about online bullying, people driven to suicide and the like are evidence enough.
    I think the anonymity online makes people feel safe to vent. I also think that same anonymity makes people feel safe to be assholes. So it all balances out .

    Of course, context makes the difference. If you're seeking a sympathetic ear, then it's just as wise for you to choose the ear carefully as it is for the person attached to that ear to choose who they listen to carefully.

    I try not to participate in a thread seeking thoughtful input where I don't feel I have the energy to be thoughtful. It's too easy to become dismissive. If it's a long OP with a complex situation, then some trite reply is not helpful to them and it doesn't give me much satisfaction either. Of course, I realize that people who repeatedly make long threads about their personal issues and respond dismissively to the input are asking to be dismissed in the future. I think that often shows the difference between someone who honestly needs to vent & is seeking input for a solution verses someone who just wants to whine & be validated because they are seeking to make a point rather than get input.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #43
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think some people have natural resistance to getting dragged into another person's crap. They can provide a decent firebreak. Other people are too sensitive just because of their nature, and they need to stay away from such people or they feel worn down and poisoned. Protean and I have gabbed some on this topic in private, and it came up that people with a history of having to work through crap might become immune or desensitized to it... so they can often play a good "firewall" for these people and actually grasp where they're coming from without being swallowed by the dark... but at the same time, the OP-labeled victims can smell said person a mile away and flock to them like sharks to get what they need, so maybe it's not the best situation for the tempered firewall person.

    In any case, no one is impenetrable, and even the normally stolid people need to get away from being mired in other people's crap, for at least a while.... to avoid (1) getting worn down OR (2) getting numb as a different sort of protective measure.

    I'm not sure what topics like trolling and someone's personal animosity resulting in stalking has to do with this thread... but whatever.
    Yeah, we never finished that convo...it was a good one.

    My mother befriended a bipolar woman a few years ago she met a Christian women's conference. The woman was very upfront with her issue soon after the friendship began and told my mother that she had trouble keeping friends because of her emotional dysregulation.

    This wasn't very long ago, I was at around 25 or so and my mother toiled within herself if she was equipped to be friends with her. The woman desperately needed a friend, was very isolated, bad relationships with most of her family (some of them poisoned herself), and a series of dysfunctional romantic relationships. She was a handful, knew it herself and it was no getting around it. My mom and I talked about it a lot and for a month or so until she felt it was laid upon upon her heart to cultivate the friendship. When my mother passed away recently, I couldn't tell who took it worse: her or us.

    When dealing with people that are carrying heavy emotional baggage, you've got to be prepared to invest a lot in them. They're not some passing interest that's played with until you (general you ) gets bored. You have a very fragile person who may just be reaching the point in their lives when they're ready to heal and if you tear that little scab, you become yet another person to break them or let them down. Conversely, you could be that person to walk with them when they're most ready to walk on their own. To me that's a heavy responsibility, something I don't take lightly.

    Because of these conflicting thoughts I have, I personally tend to ere towards avoiding people like this. I don't want to be the person to send them over the edge. I've had people in my life before that were above my head, above my capabilities, and needed more from me that what I could give. What do you do...you just wean them off and gradually reduce contact. Of course they're puzzled at what happened and it creates this whole mess that I'd rather not deal with in the first place.

    Are these people perpetual victims? It's sometimes hard to tell. Some people have a cocktail of problems beginning in childhood that are a knotted mess to untangle. Others you wonder about...they don't seem to have any pervasive issues or a troubled childhood, but put themselves in situations that have you scratching your head and wondering what's wrong with them.

    Everybody's got issues, that's part of the human experience. Everyone's insecure about something and needs reassurance. I would be more concerned about a person who seems or appears to be totally 100% confident about everything because that's usually a front hiding even more issues. I don't know at what point some issues eclipse the "normal" issues that come with being human and turn into some destructive monster that needs to be fed or it will consume everything around it, nor do I want to be the person constantly shoveling coal into its mouth.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  4. #44
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    It is end of semester and I have been thinking of specific incidents with students during the year so far, and how each of us (INTP, ESTJ, ESFJ, ISFP, INTJ) deal with self-proclaimed *victims* as opposed to real victims.

    There seem to be smatterings in almost every forum in which I have participated.

    I am curious to see whether:

    1. you are an enabler
    2. you ignore this behaviour
    3. you are verbally dismissive towards them
    4. you try to correct them
    5. any other approach you might have
    Let's see... my first instinct is probably enable, because it takes me a little while to realize the person is a perpetual victim. Enable + try to offer practical advice/empathy. Then I eventually realize that they aren't really in it to change their situation and I start to get frustrated and either keep offering the practical advice without the sympathy or try to steer the conversation away from the type of topic where they'd tend to play victim.

    If all else fails, I just end up having to try to avoid the person, like for my own sanity. I get frustrated by that kind of behavior pretty easily apparently.

    I wonder what would be the result if I were to confront them...? I'm just not really confrontational in general, so it could end up really awkward and uncomfortable.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  5. #45
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    Question: how can you tell the difference between someone who just needs to vent and someone who is playing the victim? I think I might sort of group them in the same category apparently (and treat them the same, actually).

    Is there a difference? I guess the vent person eventually moves on, once they've let enough emotions out?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  6. #46
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    It is end of semester and I have been thinking of specific incidents with students during the year so far, and how each of us (INTP, ESTJ, ESFJ, ISFP, INTJ) deal with self-proclaimed *victims* as opposed to real victims.

    There seem to be smatterings in almost every forum in which I have participated.

    I am curious to see whether:

    1. you are an enabler
    2. you ignore this behaviour
    3. you are verbally dismissive towards them
    4. you try to correct them
    5. any other approach you might have
    I can think of two severe occurrences. I have gotten frustrated and nothing I've been able to do has made a bit of difference. At first, I try and understand and give them the benefit of the doubt. After I catch on, I start ignoring it or become verbally dismissive. However, at various points, when I'm annoyed enough or the spirit moves me, I confront them on these issues. After enough effort trying to help them and get them to see things differently, without success, I get really annoyed and try to keep away from them.

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  7. #47
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Question: how can you tell the difference between someone who just needs to vent and someone who is playing the victim? I think I might sort of group them in the same category apparently (and treat them the same, actually).

    Is there a difference? I guess the vent person eventually moves on, once they've let enough emotions out?
    Yes...that person will stew for a time maybe, but you'll see signs of them rallying themselves together to get over the hurdle. It may not be immediately after the conversation that they do a 180 though, and I think that's where the gray area comes in.

    It's also how the person paints themselves - do they ever take responsibility for their circumstances? Are they always blaming someone/something else? Do they learn from their mistakes because they are willing to acknowledge them? Do they attract trouble/drama/negativity? Is their situation always worse than anyone else? You can often determine that from listening to them vent.

    I had a friend who always had constant drama in her life, and it was always someone else's fault. It got tiring to listen to her & to delicately point out how she could improve the situation, and while she did take my advice sometimes for specific situations, she did not seem to learn anything in the longterm. She also never reciprocated these "vent sessions" and had a habit of "one-upping". To me, that was a person playing victim. On some level, I think she enjoyed the drama and attention through pity. I think they begin to see it as apart of their identity also.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #48
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Question: how can you tell the difference between someone who just needs to vent and someone who is playing the victim? I think I might sort of group them in the same category apparently (and treat them the same, actually).

    Is there a difference? I guess the vent person eventually moves on, once they've let enough emotions out?
    I think this comes with experience and well functioning Ne/Ni. I was fortunate that when I left highschool my first career was mental health nursing. In teaching and training AND dealing with people in the workforce, this has been invaluable experience.

    My Ti allows me to observe detached and I have well developed Fi.

    Just a note on the vent person. If they are playing the victim and you aren't giving them the response they need, they will invariably move on to someone who will provide that response.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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  9. #49
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    Short version: I'm an enabler and I'm cool with that.

    I prefer letting someone waste my energy by pretending than not being there when someone genuinely needs help. Granted, my friends typically take care of themselves, so I haven't been overwhelmed by anyone yet. At worst, I've had people getting dumped and then beating the issue to death.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think most enablers see themselves as being supportive, non-judgmental, and emotionally validating.
    Hmm...probably true in my case.

    Long version: Nuances, Nuances, Nuances, meh


    (The thread has moved on since my initial writing of this )
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  10. #50
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    Just a note on the vent person. If they are playing the victim and you aren't giving them the response they need, they will invariably move on to someone who will provide that response.
    That's actually a good point. If you don't feed the need, they'll find someone who does.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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